Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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Bottom line - there is a minimum safe height which must be maintained before crossing the threshold and this height must not be compromised until the threshold has been crossed.
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I have never had anyone take the airplane from me and in 30+ years of flying I have never initiated a "go around" because I was unable to land stabilized and safely.
NTSB reports at media show quite discrepency from Asiana pilots' statements during investigation.
Both pilots consistently urged that they have tried to put the throttle lever full back position in order to gain the thrust but it did not work, which took place much earlier than known in public.
They stated that discovered it too low when they noticed PAPI with 3 reds and 1 white and full back throttle at 500 feet altitude but failed to gain thrust for seconds.
After several trials, pushed TO/GA for final hope, then the flight regained power but late.
Both pilots consistently urged that they have tried to put the throttle lever full back position in order to gain the thrust but it did not work, which took place much earlier than known in public.
They stated that discovered it too low when they noticed PAPI with 3 reds and 1 white and full back throttle at 500 feet altitude but failed to gain thrust for seconds.
After several trials, pushed TO/GA for final hope, then the flight regained power but late.
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They stated that discovered it too low when they noticed PAPI with 3 reds and 1 white and full back throttle at 500 feet altitude but failed to gain thrust for seconds.
PS. I hope that effect didn't last for mere seconds.
Last edited by ross_M; 14th Jul 2013 at 17:50.
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@loose_rivets:
It is mandatory for Flight Data Recorders to record throttle lever positions, as well as engine thrust and other engine operating parameters. See 14 CFR § 125.226.
I've as yet seen no information suggesting that the engines did not answer the throttles as they are supposed to do.
It is mandatory for Flight Data Recorders to record throttle lever positions, as well as engine thrust and other engine operating parameters. See 14 CFR § 125.226.
I've as yet seen no information suggesting that the engines did not answer the throttles as they are supposed to do.
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@wingview
Korean media are spinning a story that the aircraft went hogwild and the pilots are courageous heroes for wrestling it down to the runway just in time to save the lives of more than 300 people on board. Much the same way the flight attendants were ordered to parade out in front of the media. Go look at that footage. You can see how screaming enthusiastic the FAs were about that move.
It's all part of the PR battle. Expect more to come.
Korean media are spinning a story that the aircraft went hogwild and the pilots are courageous heroes for wrestling it down to the runway just in time to save the lives of more than 300 people on board. Much the same way the flight attendants were ordered to parade out in front of the media. Go look at that footage. You can see how screaming enthusiastic the FAs were about that move.
It's all part of the PR battle. Expect more to come.
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Is it not pertinent that the FD achieved something resembling a stabilised approach at c. one mile/300 FT from TD? After which they just carried in going down, with no escape possible?
How many aircraft captains would be content with an unstabilised approach at that stage?
It was too little, too late ... Am I wrong, gentlemen? (And ladies)
How many aircraft captains would be content with an unstabilised approach at that stage?
It was too little, too late ... Am I wrong, gentlemen? (And ladies)
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Again the Singapore government defended them fiercely and the crew were not jailed.
If this hull loss were proven to be nothing but pilot error (speculatively , but not totally outside the realm of possibility) how is it very different from causing a road accident while texting or speeding or by exceeding work-hours etc.?
Most such mundane road offences, if resulting in fatalities, are dealt with quite seriously these days by prosecutors.
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RNAV
Although I only fly a Piper Dakota with garmin 430 WAAS, i assume that the 777 has equipment that would allow them to fly the 28 L RNAV approach which would provide the pilot with a glideslope as good (or better) than the missing ILS. Was this available, and why would it not be standard procedure to use it as backup when the ILS is out?
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I *think* it takes the throttle position, what the a/t wants and what the fadec sees.
With 1400 data points I wouldn't be too surprised if the FDC has a parameter to tell if the pilot had the ham and cheese or roast beef on rye for lunch.
Should cycles be a metric pilots track along with hours to measure experience?
ETA: My guess would be the Asiana bird did not have WAAS
With 1400 data points I wouldn't be too surprised if the FDC has a parameter to tell if the pilot had the ham and cheese or roast beef on rye for lunch.
Should cycles be a metric pilots track along with hours to measure experience?
ETA: My guess would be the Asiana bird did not have WAAS
Last edited by LASJayhawk; 14th Jul 2013 at 18:18.
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Korean media are spinning a story that the aircraft went hogwild and the pilots are courageous heroes for wrestling it down to the runway just in time to save the lives of more than 300 people on board.
Hersman said that when the plane came to a stop, pilots told passengers to stay seated for 90 seconds while they communicated with the tower as part of a safety procedure.
“What we saw here is that the first slides weren’t opened for about 90 seconds,” she said, hinting that the evacuation process was delayed.
However, her argument was rebuffed by Choi who said the pilots did not delay the evacuation process. “Pilots should communicate with the control tower first. I don’t think that they delayed it,” he said.
They also differ over the activation of the automatic speed control system called the auto-throttle during the crashed Asiana flight.
The NTSB confirmed that the auto-throttle was “armed”, but said that it does not necessarily mean it was activated.
However, the ministry said that “armed” is equal to “on” because there are only two modes in the system ― armed and off.
They also disagree over the paring [sic] and actions of the pilots at the time of the accident.
Lee Jeong-min was the pilot in command, sitting in the right seat and acting as an instructor to Lee Gang-guk, a veteran pilot but still in the process of becoming accustomed to the Boeing 777 was sitting in the left seat controlling the aircraft.
The NTSB has taken issue with the seat positioning of the pilots, arguing that the pilot in command should have been sitting in the left seat.
However, Choi said that as Lee Gang-guk was on a “familiarization flight,” he was customarily for him to take the left seat.
“What we saw here is that the first slides weren’t opened for about 90 seconds,” she said, hinting that the evacuation process was delayed.
However, her argument was rebuffed by Choi who said the pilots did not delay the evacuation process. “Pilots should communicate with the control tower first. I don’t think that they delayed it,” he said.
They also differ over the activation of the automatic speed control system called the auto-throttle during the crashed Asiana flight.
The NTSB confirmed that the auto-throttle was “armed”, but said that it does not necessarily mean it was activated.
However, the ministry said that “armed” is equal to “on” because there are only two modes in the system ― armed and off.
They also disagree over the paring [sic] and actions of the pilots at the time of the accident.
Lee Jeong-min was the pilot in command, sitting in the right seat and acting as an instructor to Lee Gang-guk, a veteran pilot but still in the process of becoming accustomed to the Boeing 777 was sitting in the left seat controlling the aircraft.
The NTSB has taken issue with the seat positioning of the pilots, arguing that the pilot in command should have been sitting in the left seat.
However, Choi said that as Lee Gang-guk was on a “familiarization flight,” he was customarily for him to take the left seat.
It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to provide the airline pilots of the world with some stick time. Convert a few light twins to variable stability a la Beagle Bassett of ETPS. Voila, you can now fly 777 flapless approaches, A310 single engine approaches, etc, to your heart's content.
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The sooner the public base their decision making on safety rather than cost the better. If there really is a systemic problem concerning the training and experience of airline pilots within the aviation industry, safety will once again become the top priority when booking a flight. It would appear that the SFO crash has brought that day forward by some considerable amount.
Accountants are not stupid, they will respond.....
Accountants are not stupid, they will respond.....
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Originally Posted by ross M
Asides of the NTSB investigation (which so far as I know does not assign blame) what's the chance of a criminal prosecution being filed? ( Almost certainly, civil suits will result. ) What's the dividing line between an accident and culpable negligence?
edit: The case I mentioned was the first time a pilot in the us had ever faced criminal prosecution for an accident, according to the AOPA. That was in 2008. No idea if any have followed since.
Last edited by A Squared; 14th Jul 2013 at 19:05.
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pax britanica (responding to Fox 3):
And in the modern airline world, too much competition - resulting in too little training to overcome cultural gradients.
Competition is a good thing, but it can become cutthroat, resulting in cost cuts both visible and invisible to the unsavvy customer.
I think your post sums up the problems of the modern world.
Too many accountants
Too many lawyers
Not enough ethics (or common sense)
Too many accountants
Too many lawyers
Not enough ethics (or common sense)
Competition is a good thing, but it can become cutthroat, resulting in cost cuts both visible and invisible to the unsavvy customer.
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It takes amazing skill to control a plane that has lost its tail and to make it rotate without flipping while reducing the speed.
We would all like to believe that we as pilots are heroes and would not crash a perfectly functioning aircraft in good weather on a routine approach.
We should know more soon when the CVR transcript is released by the NTSB.
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Quote:
Asiana Airlines considering legal action after - CNN.com
polarise support? Guess it might offset their huge insurance burden and counter
suits for corporate manslaughter.
Frankly, sounds like an overreaction. That joke / prank may have been silly
but I didn't think it was horrendously out of place or offensive or anything
(compared to the baseline on american TV). The racial / nationalistic angle was
perhaps offensive to some, but it's not as if these pilots are blame free.
Every time some dude believes his GPS and drives himself onto railway
tracks we make fun of them. Or people that do stupid stuff while yapping away on
cellphones.
These Asiana pilots aren't exactly beyond reproach. I don't
know why everyone wants to treat them so reverently.
In any case I
don't know how they well make a legal case that the pilots' reputations were
hurt, if all the TV station used were these silly pseudonyms.
Now, if the NTSB's finding of probable cause is nothing more than Pilot Error, the groundwork has been laid to dispute the impartiality of the finding: The NTSB can't possibly be impartial, because they made fun of (especially of the ethnicity of), our pilots' names...
Edit to add: The ethnic angle might also impugn the board's credibility with respect to any findings critical of the contributory effect of Korean culture to the conduct of the crew.
Last edited by Ditchdigger; 14th Jul 2013 at 20:00.
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So what do we do now? It´s up to us only.
Regardless of what the NTSB finally says, the thruth is: not much is going to change, at least not for the better for us pilots.
Do not expect your training sylabus to change in order to include xx amount of extra hours for us to do visuals etc. The ACCOUNTANTS of the world will not allow it.
Do not expect your next OM-A revision to come with explicit encouragment to let go of the automation. The LAWYERS of the world will not allow it. (if anything it will all just become more retrictive).
That being the reality of our modern corporate world: Do not expect SOMEBODY ELSE to fix our issue.
It is up to us to keep the last thing we have, and that is our professionalism, intact. So next time you shoot an approach (conditions permitting): disconnect early. If you are a captain, next time your FO briefs for the approach (conditions permitting): offer him to disconnect early. It is only up to US INSIDE THE COCKPIT to keep the standard of our profession, and more importantly, to give ourselves the chance to keep IMPROVING as pilots as our careers go by. And not, as it is happenning, getting each time worse and worse until we finally become the laughing stock of all the professionals around the world: pilots who cannot fly a plane. What a disgrace.
Good luck to all.
p.d.
(and please people that know
about this job refrain from asking/suggesting , there is another area of this forum for that)
Do not expect your training sylabus to change in order to include xx amount of extra hours for us to do visuals etc. The ACCOUNTANTS of the world will not allow it.
Do not expect your next OM-A revision to come with explicit encouragment to let go of the automation. The LAWYERS of the world will not allow it. (if anything it will all just become more retrictive).
That being the reality of our modern corporate world: Do not expect SOMEBODY ELSE to fix our issue.
It is up to us to keep the last thing we have, and that is our professionalism, intact. So next time you shoot an approach (conditions permitting): disconnect early. If you are a captain, next time your FO briefs for the approach (conditions permitting): offer him to disconnect early. It is only up to US INSIDE THE COCKPIT to keep the standard of our profession, and more importantly, to give ourselves the chance to keep IMPROVING as pilots as our careers go by. And not, as it is happenning, getting each time worse and worse until we finally become the laughing stock of all the professionals around the world: pilots who cannot fly a plane. What a disgrace.
Good luck to all.
p.d.
(and please people that know
about this job refrain from asking/suggesting , there is another area of this forum for that)
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[According to witnesses, the plane’s tail broke off first as it was landing and the pilot chose the nearest runway instead of the scheduled runway. It looks like the pilot’s judgement and skills prevented a big disaster. It takes amazing skill to control a plane that has lost its tail and to make it rotate without flipping while reducing the speed. If it flipped once, they would’ve all died. Imagine how hard it is to stop a tumbling car moving at 150 kilometers per hour all within a short distance. As shown in the emergency landing in Murmansk, Korean airline pilots’ skills are among the top in the world because most of them are from the air force.[QUOTE]
ASSUMING the translation stands up, it seems there is very little point investigating as the airline and wider Korean society will not be interested in the finding. Such denial and propaganda are reminiscent of ridiculous regimes over the last few decades...
The fact that the airline are trying to detract from the issue by threatening law suits over an ill conceived gag, is frankly appalling. If they took a closer look at why their "pilots" drove a perfectly serviceable jet into a sea-wall, killing 3 kids in the process, they might learn something.
Disgraceful.
ASSUMING the translation stands up, it seems there is very little point investigating as the airline and wider Korean society will not be interested in the finding. Such denial and propaganda are reminiscent of ridiculous regimes over the last few decades...
The fact that the airline are trying to detract from the issue by threatening law suits over an ill conceived gag, is frankly appalling. If they took a closer look at why their "pilots" drove a perfectly serviceable jet into a sea-wall, killing 3 kids in the process, they might learn something.
Disgraceful.
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Is it not pertinent that the FD achieved something resembling a stabilised approach at c. one mile/300 FT from TD? After which they just carried in going down, with no escape possible?