Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spectators indeed. 
I'm wondering what the other pilots were actually doing during the approach phase.
Enjoying the scenery perhaps. But even that should have alerted the crew about the impending danger (low altitude).
I'm wondering what the other pilots were actually doing during the approach phase.
Enjoying the scenery perhaps. But even that should have alerted the crew about the impending danger (low altitude).
Last edited by worldpilot; 8th Jul 2013 at 15:57.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: What day is it?
Age: 17
Posts: 71
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks fourgolds, as someone about to go from A to B I'll store that one away.
Now back to another 500 or so posts telling us about the three times table or assuming all companies work like theirs etc.
Now back to another 500 or so posts telling us about the three times table or assuming all companies work like theirs etc.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: on a blue balloon
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AF suffered some critical failures that caught many a clever AIB pilot out in the sim
AnQrKa: if you're referring to AF447, what were those failures (plural)? That plane would have remained perfectly flyable if the pilots had followed procedures.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the pilot was converting from Airbus, and he had indeed held the throttles too tight preventing their motion
So label this interesting but irrelevant.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The NTSB Chair who is heading the 214 investigation and the official NTSB spokes person, has no expertise regarding aircraft, aviation, or investigations.
@geoheath
She is not heading the investigation
The NTSB Chair who is heading the 214 investigation
NTSB LAUNCHING TEAM TO INVESTIGATE BOEING 777 CRASH IN SAN FRANCISCO
July, 6, 2013
WASHINGTON – The National Transportation Safety Board is launching a full go-team to San Francisco, Calif., to investigate today’s crash involving Asiana Airlines Flight 214, a Boeing 777. The crash occurred while the aircraft was landing at San Francisco International Airport.
NTSB Senior Aviation Accident Investigator Bill English will serve as investigator-in-charge. NTSB Chairman Deborah A.P. Hersman is accompanying the team and will serve as the principal spokesman.
July, 6, 2013
WASHINGTON – The National Transportation Safety Board is launching a full go-team to San Francisco, Calif., to investigate today’s crash involving Asiana Airlines Flight 214, a Boeing 777. The crash occurred while the aircraft was landing at San Francisco International Airport.
NTSB Senior Aviation Accident Investigator Bill English will serve as investigator-in-charge. NTSB Chairman Deborah A.P. Hersman is accompanying the team and will serve as the principal spokesman.
I think our Kiwi mate Offcut at post #717 is on the money. For those who have flown both the 74 and the 77 it is the most logical answer.
My guess is that a hot and high approach was flown in FLCH. That is the only mode that will get you down in a hurry. If the A/P is then disconnected, the auto throttles will remain in Hold, and not "wake up". If a pilot purely concentrated on the aim point and forgot his scan, speed could easily wash off to the point of stick shaker or beyond. FLCH is a major threat in the 777 if used while hand flying and should never be used during an approach. Our SOPs require FDs off, then one back on to force AT into speed mode.
There may have been speed brakes involved but that does not change the basic scenario...airpseed bleed is corrected by gripping the handles and moving them forward.Noone did that until 1.5 seconds before impact.
So when the PF finally picked up the GS from below he was out of inertia. The fact no-one else in the cockpit was awake at that specific moment is the most interesting conundrum.
My guess is that a hot and high approach was flown in FLCH. That is the only mode that will get you down in a hurry. If the A/P is then disconnected, the auto throttles will remain in Hold, and not "wake up". If a pilot purely concentrated on the aim point and forgot his scan, speed could easily wash off to the point of stick shaker or beyond. FLCH is a major threat in the 777 if used while hand flying and should never be used during an approach. Our SOPs require FDs off, then one back on to force AT into speed mode.
There may have been speed brakes involved but that does not change the basic scenario...airpseed bleed is corrected by gripping the handles and moving them forward.Noone did that until 1.5 seconds before impact.
So when the PF finally picked up the GS from below he was out of inertia. The fact no-one else in the cockpit was awake at that specific moment is the most interesting conundrum.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: ME
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely correct.
I agree 100%. But let me explain why I think all this happens.
Aviation today is ruled by lots of factors, lets say, pax comfort, economy, and the like…
The common rule is use of automation, which is good, but I think we all became rusty because we are not allow to fly manually, or to do visual approaches more often, of course weather and workload permitting.
The punitive culture spreads worldwide, so to avoid unnecessary visits to the office, people choice is automation all the time. Don't forget the use of flight data.
Even more important is the so called "training", which has turned more into evaluation. Good old days when we all had in the classroom real human pilots or engineers, the old good transparency projector, and so…today, it is a self service DVD, and some carriers are proud to say "no spoon fed here".
More food for though, be aware next crew is waiting outside the sim, so guys, no more time to repeat.
About the flight deck gradient, sorry to disagree with other guys, but it is a fact, the company culture is something more than what we see in the website or in a brochure.
And it is even worse if you mix it. That's what happens nowadays with lots of pilots working abroad.
Aviation today is ruled by lots of factors, lets say, pax comfort, economy, and the like…
The common rule is use of automation, which is good, but I think we all became rusty because we are not allow to fly manually, or to do visual approaches more often, of course weather and workload permitting.
The punitive culture spreads worldwide, so to avoid unnecessary visits to the office, people choice is automation all the time. Don't forget the use of flight data.
Even more important is the so called "training", which has turned more into evaluation. Good old days when we all had in the classroom real human pilots or engineers, the old good transparency projector, and so…today, it is a self service DVD, and some carriers are proud to say "no spoon fed here".
More food for though, be aware next crew is waiting outside the sim, so guys, no more time to repeat.
About the flight deck gradient, sorry to disagree with other guys, but it is a fact, the company culture is something more than what we see in the website or in a brochure.
And it is even worse if you mix it. That's what happens nowadays with lots of pilots working abroad.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: E.Wash State
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
official NTSB spokes person, has no expertise regarding aircraft, aviation, or investigations.
Investigating the incident's cause and presenting the results to the media are not the same skill.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not only that, but I've flown for an airline with a 'highly regarded training department' but for years, every 6 months, the LPC failures were the same at the same airport using the same approaches. I've no idea what the partial pass/failure rate was, but it did not seem very taxing. I also once was a TC for an airline, in a different country to my birth, and in my naivety in the first 6 months of conducting prof checks, while trying to raise standards above that of a flying club, I failed a crew. They were rostered the next day to fly. the consternation, shock horror, disbelief, etc. etc. not to mention the outrage of a crewing dept with an under crewed airline, nearly caused me to seek refuge in the Ecuadorian embassy. My scalp was saved by the new C.P. who agreed with the assessment. However, among the other trainers and pilots there was the belief that crews in this airline did not fail prof checks.
Today, IMHO, I suspect many tests are set to satisfy the legal minimum requirement of manoeuvres and in such a way as to avoid as many failures as possible. Cynical; ya betcha.
Today, IMHO, I suspect many tests are set to satisfy the legal minimum requirement of manoeuvres and in such a way as to avoid as many failures as possible. Cynical; ya betcha.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With respect, there is no suggestion, let alone evidence that she was alive when (and if) run over. That is purely an assumption, and as the other one ejected was dead and considering the circumstances probably not a very sound one.
Let's not allow assumptions to run away with us.
Let's not allow assumptions to run away with us.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: united arab emirates
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I only saw the article on Aviation News | Aviation Industry & Airline Statistics | flightglobal.com that he had flown b737,747 and A320. Have not seen the info that the last type flown was 747.
I also merely shared an experience that I had. I by no means said that is what occured. One also has to be open to the possibility that in a stressfull situation human beings ( pilots) can resort to what is most familiar to them. For example after 5000+ hrs on the 777 I still occasionally have an airbus thought process whilst flying it ! Especially when really fatigued , ie I resort to the first jet I learned on .Its happens very rarely now but occured a lot during the first 1000 or so hours .Fortunately it's a duh moment and I realise , duh that's the other airplane! I promise I am not alone , I have seen other ex airbus guys make similar mistakes or have similar duh moments.
On the cultural side of things , I have read Malcolm Gladwells , " outliers" simply a fantastic read. The short article " the ethnic theory of plane crashes" is superbly researched and presented. Also if you have ever wandered why most of the worlds best team sportsmen are born in January or February , this book will make some amazing revelations. Anyway don't mean a thread drift. I do think the cause of the accident will be determined fairly quickly as they have the data. Sadly I expect to see something like this on the report, " the Pilot had flown 92 hours in the last 28 days and was legal in accordance with flight time regulations and deemed not to be fatigued by the airlines fatigue monitoring computer system and the law. So fatigue has been ruled out as a contributing factor. That's a whole different can of worms.
I also merely shared an experience that I had. I by no means said that is what occured. One also has to be open to the possibility that in a stressfull situation human beings ( pilots) can resort to what is most familiar to them. For example after 5000+ hrs on the 777 I still occasionally have an airbus thought process whilst flying it ! Especially when really fatigued , ie I resort to the first jet I learned on .Its happens very rarely now but occured a lot during the first 1000 or so hours .Fortunately it's a duh moment and I realise , duh that's the other airplane! I promise I am not alone , I have seen other ex airbus guys make similar mistakes or have similar duh moments.
On the cultural side of things , I have read Malcolm Gladwells , " outliers" simply a fantastic read. The short article " the ethnic theory of plane crashes" is superbly researched and presented. Also if you have ever wandered why most of the worlds best team sportsmen are born in January or February , this book will make some amazing revelations. Anyway don't mean a thread drift. I do think the cause of the accident will be determined fairly quickly as they have the data. Sadly I expect to see something like this on the report, " the Pilot had flown 92 hours in the last 28 days and was legal in accordance with flight time regulations and deemed not to be fatigued by the airlines fatigue monitoring computer system and the law. So fatigue has been ruled out as a contributing factor. That's a whole different can of worms.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
epc said
2) The PF on the Asiana flight was the junior pilot in type conversion training, and he was under the supervision of the trainer sitting on the right side, so here there is no issue of "Asian FO's not able to speak up against the captain." If the PF did anything stupid, there would be no hesitation by the trainer to speak up and do something about it.
I have refrained from commenting up until now.
I was inspired by the account of the difficulties faced by Lee Yoon-Hye and her cabin staff in evacuating this badly damaged aircraft so successfully.
One of my cabin staff forgot to disarm 1 Door L on my DC-10 one day at Toronto and the slide inflated inside the jetway. The meeters and greeters were only saved by the bend in the jetway. They are pretty big when they inflate.
To have two huge slides inflate inside the cabin (trapping two of your team in the process) and still get 300-odd passengers out with fire breaking out around you is a truly remarkable achievement.
Regardless of what went on with those sitting in front in the window seats, the cabin crew did a remarkable job and should be congratulated.
I was inspired by the account of the difficulties faced by Lee Yoon-Hye and her cabin staff in evacuating this badly damaged aircraft so successfully.
One of my cabin staff forgot to disarm 1 Door L on my DC-10 one day at Toronto and the slide inflated inside the jetway. The meeters and greeters were only saved by the bend in the jetway. They are pretty big when they inflate.
To have two huge slides inflate inside the cabin (trapping two of your team in the process) and still get 300-odd passengers out with fire breaking out around you is a truly remarkable achievement.
Regardless of what went on with those sitting in front in the window seats, the cabin crew did a remarkable job and should be congratulated.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: WORLD
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could anyone confirm if:
-There were 4 people in cockpit.
-3 of them were Captains with "10.000 hours in total" (the three together)
-It was a training flight.
-Pilots tried a G.A
-There were 4 people in cockpit.
-3 of them were Captains with "10.000 hours in total" (the three together)
-It was a training flight.
-Pilots tried a G.A
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FWIW:
The former chairman of the U.S. NTSB, Peter Goelz, stated to the media that it was obvious, to him anyway, that the flight deck 'crew was not paying attention' and that the accident is 'inexcusable'.
Pretty harsh words coming from someone of that stature. And especially considering the investigation into the cause of the accident is far from finished. One would think someone like Mr. Goelz would know better.
The former chairman of the U.S. NTSB, Peter Goelz, stated to the media that it was obvious, to him anyway, that the flight deck 'crew was not paying attention' and that the accident is 'inexcusable'.
Pretty harsh words coming from someone of that stature. And especially considering the investigation into the cause of the accident is far from finished. One would think someone like Mr. Goelz would know better.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 65
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The NTSB Chair who is heading the 214 investigation and the official NTSB spokes person, has no expertise regarding aircraft, aviation, or investigations.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The NTSB Chair who is heading the 214 investigation and the official NTSB spokesperson, has no expertise regarding aircraft, aviation, or investigations
