Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:22
  #621 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Visual approach without aids

The Captain has 12,400 hours, of which 3200 are on type; the F/O has 9,800 hours and is new on type.

Is someone going to try to convince me they can't muster up a visual approach without PAPIs or VASAs?? They must have observed the approach path to hundreds of approaches, and made hundreds of visual approaches in their professional lives, in different conditions and places...?

Probably in SFO also...
ortotrotel is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:24
  #622 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
But first they have to get them back from the Yanks. Two people have died on American soil; they're not likely to get them back any time soon…
Just what the hell does that have to do with this accident? Not to mention that it is not true, as soon as the autopsies are completed, the bodies will be released to the families or their official/legal representatives. As they are dealing with two young teenagers from China that were killed in an aircraft accident, it will be done very quickly, because the victims of aircraft accidents have priority.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:25
  #623 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The last 6 rows are all compressed.

And only two killed? If you were pinned in the rear and smoke in the cabin I can't imagine........

After the video and photo's it is a stunning miracle there are not a lot more dead and injured.

Boeing in a way should be impressed with how well that stood up to the punishment it copped.
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:25
  #624 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
KSFO (San Francisco) 777 Plane Crash ATC Recording - YouTube

On min 2:07 you can hear the initial call by the Asiana Crew (7nms out)
On that tape above the landing clearance is missing. But for sure you can hear the clearance on other recordings.

Strangely enough on min 3:12 the Pilots reports a “short final” again? Could be that an indication of a possible confusion about the Status? Or is that part of a normal procedure to make a short final call even though Landing clearance have been given already?

Last edited by azalea; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:51.
azalea is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:26
  #625 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Body on runway

They've announced that the two who were killed were found on the runway. When watching live video of the scene I saw what appeared to be a yellow body bag and some people standing near it. I thought it couldn't be a body bag, but, maybe it was.
Not Hiding is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:26
  #626 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Question Autothrust

Please can a 777 driver explain the A/T. Only 777 please.

Why if the A/T is engaged would the speed decay below target speed. On the Bus with FD off the the AT will follow the speed bug. On Thrust Idle open des the throttles remain at idle.

Which mode would allow the AT to go below target speed.

AT is usually always engaged.
James7 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:28
  #627 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 65
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And as a person who pays for a couple (or more) expensive guys to sit at the front of an airplane and fly me round the world I expect them to at least be able to put it down on the ground without requiring the assistance of anyone/anything on the ground if needs be. Afterall, there's plenty of redundancy on the plane, and I bet there's almost none on the ground.
I agree that the pilots should have been adequately trained and capable of this apparently basic manouever. However, aviation depends on reducing the risk of anything going wrong by taking a belt-and-braces-and-more-braces-and-some-velcro approach to safety. For a major hub airport to expect all crews to compensate for lack of landing aids over a sustained period seems to me to remove a big layer of redundancy. Is this normal?
overthewing is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:28
  #628 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Midlands
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not being familiar with a 777, what would have caused that intense fire? Didn't look like the fuel tanks ruptured and started the fire. Does the 777 carry LOX near the main cabin area or is there just that much flammable material in the cabin?
Oxygen lines to the PSUs
Back at NH is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:32
  #629 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Quote:
so why is no-one talking about similarities with british Airways crash of their 777 when there was no power increase final? iced up fuel lines thought to be probable cause. Not a hint on any network that that might explain it all. and the missing engine? Torn off by the sea wall. everyone is ignoring its loss. if the same reason would have high seriosness for Boeing 777 fleet!

Because the similarity is with the Turkish 738 crash at Amsterdam, not the BA.
Actually, the similarity with TK1951 is a bit limited in that the precipitating factor for that accident was an undiagnosed RA failure resulting in a change of auto thrust mode that was unrecognized by the crew, and was accompanied by a distraction from monitoring of the basic flight parameters by the PIC that the accident report suggests may be attributable to the training captain's conduct of "instruction tasks".

A more comparable accident would be IC605, an Indian Airlines A320 that crashed at Bangalore in 1990. Like this accident the situation involved an upgrade captain under-going initial line training on a new aircraft type and, as may be the case in this accident, the precipitating factor was solely a failure of the PF to comprehend the nature of the auto thrust mode that had been selected as a result of the crew's own actions (and also inaction on the part of the instructor who was PNF in that instance).

As a veteran of many years spent flying in Korea, India and other parts of Asia I can attest to the fact that visual approach procedures were infrequently practiced and often poorly executed by many of my national colleagues. This is not an accusation, simply the observation of someone with a good deal of experience working in those cockpit environments. Consider that for what it is worth in conjunction with the evidence available thus far on this event.

Another issue that is likely to become very pertinent is the nature of how "training" is conducted at a number of the Asian carriers. It is very different from the experience of training at most Western carriers. Students are expected to arrive already knowing (generally by memorization) all of the answers, and are not actively taught by their instructors. Information or discussion related to upcoming tasks is rarely, if ever, introduced and critique is generally limited to "How come you don't know ...."

In this environment students tend to remain silent about anything they don't know and will continue doing whatever they are doing, however badly, until the instructor intercedes to tell them to do something else. Frequently this intercession manifests itself in the instructor actively manipulating the controls, gear, flaps, speed brakes as he determines necessary without any other guidance than perhaps a "How come you are too high/low fast/slow ..."

It will be revealing to see what the details are of the instruction the upgrading pilot actually received from the training pilot about how to conduct a visual approach, particularly if it started out from a slam dunk. Similarly there will be a lot of questions to ask about what level of training was completed during the preceding sim and line training on visual approaches and on the inter-relationship of auto flight and auto thrust modes that can occur while conducting a visual approach. A cynic might also wonder whether the records reflect the reality, though in this case I believe the sim training would have been conducted by a reputable and accountable training organization.

Beyond all the questions regarding how the approach was conducted, perhaps the most germane question will be why the go-around was not conducted at an early enough point to avoid the accident. A preliminary collection of observations would suggest that an unrecognized deviation of airspeed was not the only parameter to have exceeded stabilized approach criteria. Before this both altitude (as a function of distance to the runway and probably via working PAPI's) and vertical speed are likely to have exceeded allowable limits per the company's SOP. Why, apparently, no call-outs and no go-around until it was far too late to do any good?

Though the company I worked for in Korea made many mistakes one thing that changed for the better during my stay was the company policy on go-arounds. Instead of being grounds for punishment it was clearly stated that a safely conducted go-around would be a "get out of jail free card" for any unintentional violations of the stabilized approach criteria. Continuing, on the contrary, would indeed bring down the full wrath of the FOQA monitoring/punishment system. My guess would be that OZ is no different in this regard and likely has a similar policy. If so, the reason why that didn't work may come down to another characteristic known to occur when things appear to be going badly wrong ... some pilots just stop actively thinking and doing and become passive observers in the face of a problem they don't know how to control.

Last edited by ELAC; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:49.
ELAC is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:34
  #630 (permalink)  
TLB
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Gents, the 777 has a function where by if you bring the RX waypoint to the top of the legs page 1L and engage VNAV then it will give you a 3 deg profile to that waypoint. That was option # 1.
Option #2 could have been to plug in the RNAV approach and use it for vertical guidance whilst conducting the visual approach..... what we call the Chinese glide slope on the side of the NAV display.
Option #3 could have been to look out the window and put the aiming point of 1000 ft in the bottom third of the windshield and keep it there and use the thrust to maintain a constant speed profile.
How about option #4:

- disconnect the automatics
- place one hand on the stick/controller/yoke
- place the other hand on the throttles
- visually look out the front windscreen
- cross-check your indicated air speed to maintain VRef
- land the airplane like the wings on your chest say you are capable of
TLB is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:37
  #631 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Madrid
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ADS- B data

ADS-B Data
By (anonymous) on Sunday, Jul 7th 2013 07:07Z

LAT,LONG,HDG,UTC,ALT,GS,VS
37.7286,-122.4901,139,6:14:56 PM,11125,256,0
37.6863,-122.4439,139,6:15:50 PM,11100,254,-128
37.6219,-122.3773,144,6:16:54 PM,11100,253,-128
37.5626,-122.3368,152,6:17:52 PM,10225,250,-1152
37.501,-122.2965,152,6:18:52 PM,9150,248,-768
37.4398,-122.2477,120,6:19:56 PM,8800,250,-1024
37.4136,-122.1699,112,6:20:54 PM,7800,249,-1152
37.4211,-122.0942,44,6:21:52 PM,6225,244,-2304
37.4816,-122.0775,327,6:22:54 PM,5050,241,-1408
37.52,-122.1406,297,6:23:52 PM,4275,219,-384
37.5477,-122.2064,297,6:24:54 PM,3400,202,-1024
37.5726,-122.2652,297,6:25:54 PM,2175,186,-1152
37.5954,-122.319,297,6:26:54 PM,1100,149,-1536
37.6123,-122.3595,297,6:27:54 PM,75,113,-384
chulin2208 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:41
  #632 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How about option #4:

- disconnect the automatics
- place one hand on the stick/controller/yoke
- place the other hand on the throttles
- visually look out the front windscreen
- cross-check your indicated air speed to maintain VRef
- land the airplane like the wings on your chest say you are capable of
Sorry. Too difficult. Look at the caloric cost: all those hand and eye movements, not to mention rudder inputs, PLUS the judgement required.

Last edited by ortotrotel; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:42. Reason: quote missing
ortotrotel is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:43
  #633 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bangkok / San Francisco
Age: 58
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They crash a totally functional airplane trying to land in perfect weather on an 11k+ foot runway and we're arguing about who's to blame? Can you conceivably be serious?
You're right. 100 % correct!
joelnthailand is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:49
  #634 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,167
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
So fast and high at 2000' and 1000' with idle thrust and they then get low and slow at the end.
This is not just an incompetent crew unable to fly their Aircraft safely.
It's also the fault of SFO airport for not having a serviceable ILS
AND the fault of ATC for slam dunk approaches......

All the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up yesterday in SFO and luckily only 2 people lost their lives because it could have been much worse.
nitpicker330 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:54
  #635 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's also the fault of SFO airport for not having a serviceable ILS
AND the fault of ATC for slam dunk approaches......
Utter nonsense.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:54
  #636 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Location: Location!
Posts: 2,291
Received 31 Likes on 24 Posts
But first they have to get them back from the Yanks. Two people have died on American soil; they're not likely to get them back any time soon…

Just what the hell does that have to do with this accident? Not to mention that it is not true, as soon as the autopsies are completed, the bodies will be released to the families or their official/legal representatives. As they are dealing with two young teenagers from China that were killed in an aircraft accident, it will be done very quickly, because the victims of aircraft accidents have priority.


Surely "them" is a (somewhat oblique) reference to the flight crew, rather than to the two very unfortunate Chinese girls.

Last edited by Union Jack; 8th Jul 2013 at 10:37.
Union Jack is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2013, 23:59
  #637 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They crash a totally functional airplane trying to land in perfect weather on an 11k+ foot runway and we're arguing about who's to blame? Can you conceivably be serious?

You're right. 100 % correct!
I agree. The NTSB can wrap this one in less than a week...it's all the interviews they want to have that will take the time.
ortotrotel is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 00:00
  #638 (permalink)  
Dushan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by con-pilot
Just what the hell does that have to do with this accident? Not to mention that it is not true, as soon as the autopsies are completed, the bodies will be released to the families or their official/legal representatives. As they are dealing with two young teenagers from China that were killed in an aircraft accident, it will be done very quickly, because the victims of aircraft accidents have priority.
Con-pilot, I think he was referring to the crew, not the victims. Unless threa Re criminal charged laid, I think they will be allowed to return home.
 
Old 8th Jul 2013, 00:03
  #639 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Torono
Age: 56
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone posted the vid that CNN is showing?
Dak Man is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 00:08
  #640 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not sure if this has been posted yet - but it's hard data in a reasonable analysis: http://flyingprofessors.net/what-hap...-flight-214-2/

Last edited by barit1; 8th Jul 2013 at 00:08.
barit1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.