Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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I don't think it's correct to give all the blame to the crew here before all facts are on the table.
Ofcourse the actual flying part and actions are made by the crew, but more important question should be: Why did this happen, and how can we prevent it from happening again?
A number of reasons might be leading up to the final mistakes made. As examples:
Pilot training (as mentioned before in posts)
Cockpit culture and authority (as in many previous accidents with airlines from the far east)
Airline policies and culture/"Punishment"
language barrier (Did they get stressed by something happening before final approach)
Fatigue
weather
Airport equipment
To look back to another accident, the midair in Uberlingen where the controller working ofcourse had responsibility, but he was put in that situation because of several reasons he was aware and unaware off.
The airline industry almost never had a incident/accident where only one factor is the reason, always "the Swiss cheese" theory is the reason that a accident will happen.
So people......be careful to judge to hard before all the facts are on the table
As for me personal I think the report will for sure give a lot of critisism to the crew/pilot flying for the technical part of this accident. But I for sure also hope they will address the important part most, and that is how did this crew end up in this mess, and how can we prevent it from happening in the future?
Ofcourse the actual flying part and actions are made by the crew, but more important question should be: Why did this happen, and how can we prevent it from happening again?
A number of reasons might be leading up to the final mistakes made. As examples:
Pilot training (as mentioned before in posts)
Cockpit culture and authority (as in many previous accidents with airlines from the far east)
Airline policies and culture/"Punishment"
language barrier (Did they get stressed by something happening before final approach)
Fatigue
weather
Airport equipment
To look back to another accident, the midair in Uberlingen where the controller working ofcourse had responsibility, but he was put in that situation because of several reasons he was aware and unaware off.
The airline industry almost never had a incident/accident where only one factor is the reason, always "the Swiss cheese" theory is the reason that a accident will happen.
So people......be careful to judge to hard before all the facts are on the table
As for me personal I think the report will for sure give a lot of critisism to the crew/pilot flying for the technical part of this accident. But I for sure also hope they will address the important part most, and that is how did this crew end up in this mess, and how can we prevent it from happening in the future?
Last edited by FinalVectors; 7th Jul 2013 at 22:41.
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I'm wondering if the crew had modified the heights on an existing approach (RNAV or LOC) to account for the displaced threshold, and screwed one or more heights somewhere while modifying the approach, and then flown the approach in LNAV/VNAV with incorrect vertical guidance. It will be interesting to see if and for how long the autopilot was engaged during the final approach.
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They crash a totally functional airplane trying to land in perfect weather on an 11k+ foot runway and we're arguing about who's to blame? Can you conceivably be serious?
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If they were in FLCH mode, it's possible the Autothrottles were in HOLD mode.
In this situation a 777 crew who, let's say, are highly dependent on automation, could find themselves below Target Speed
In this situation a 777 crew who, let's say, are highly dependent on automation, could find themselves below Target Speed
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I'm wondering if the crew had modified the heights on an existing approach (RNAV or LOC) to account for the displaced threshold,
Psychophysiological entity
Just watched CNN and others. A poor but workable video of the crash shows the right wing rising 40, maybe 50 degrees up, well into the slide. I couldn't tell if the fuselage lifted or if the port wing was breaking to allow that roll.
The injuries are horrific. Many patients have multiple serious injuries, many spinal injuries and many gut injuries - possibly from the belts. It's astonishing that so many people were carried clear.
The injuries are horrific. Many patients have multiple serious injuries, many spinal injuries and many gut injuries - possibly from the belts. It's astonishing that so many people were carried clear.
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Asian pilots
Correct Silver. Some people groups, like Asian and Arab are notorious for having favourite sons (not daughters) shuffled through training and onto the line. The low competence levels exist in about 20-25% of locals, which is 20-25% too many for safety. Africa can be worse. These people end up with commands, which is when things become dangerous. This system does not function in Westernized nations.
(You can exclude the Japs from this generalization but a whole host of ME and Far East companies spring to mind. Just ask any Western trainer and you will learn this.)
This is not a racist comment; distinguishing different groups of people by their abilities or lack of is not racism. Air safety should never be politically correct.
Correct Silver. Some people groups, like Asian and Arab are notorious for having favourite sons (not daughters) shuffled through training and onto the line. The low competence levels exist in about 20-25% of locals, which is 20-25% too many for safety. Africa can be worse. These people end up with commands, which is when things become dangerous. This system does not function in Westernized nations.
(You can exclude the Japs from this generalization but a whole host of ME and Far East companies spring to mind. Just ask any Western trainer and you will learn this.)
This is not a racist comment; distinguishing different groups of people by their abilities or lack of is not racism. Air safety should never be politically correct.
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 7th Jul 2013 at 22:53.
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aircraft was on a visual approach
However, a few here are trying to place some or most of the blame on the fact that the ILS for 28L was OTS.
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Fire?
Not being familiar with a 777, what would have caused that intense fire? Didn't look like the fuel tanks ruptured and started the fire. Does the 777 carry LOX near the main cabin area or is there just that much flammable material in the cabin?
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NTSB released two pictures of the aft cabin section.
https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/3540...270848/photo/1
https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/3540...886272/photo/1
https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/3540...270848/photo/1
https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/3540...886272/photo/1
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In response to BBK, I am in agreement with B-HKD. If you know anything about Korean law and their culture then these guys are toast.
But first they have to get them back from the Yanks. Two people have died on American soil; they're not likely to get them back any time soon…
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... The down side is obvious, automation is not always available or U/S, so then the human has to take over. ...
So, wouldn't you agree that hand-flying ILS in any weather every now and then boosts skill to fly smoother visuals wherever required.
Call their arrival wx a perfect environment... aren't OPS departments ubiquitous parts of environment as well? Maybe worth a look?
Last edited by Machrihanish; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:02.
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Gents, the 777 has a function where by if you bring the RX waypoint to the top of the legs page 1L and engage VNAV then it will give you a 3 deg profile to that waypoint. That was option # 1.
Option #2 could have been to plug in the RNAV approach and use it for vertical guidance whilst conducting the visual approach..... what we call the Chinese glide slope on the side of the NAV display.
Option #3 could have been to look out the window and put the aiming point of 1000 ft in the bottom third of the windshield and keep it there and use the thrust to maintain a constant speed profile.
The inability to recognise a divergent approach (indisputable thru flight track v/s data) and the lack of a go around below a stabilised criteria height limit (again indisputable) is an indictment on the professionalism of the crew piloting the aircraft.
In response to BBK, I am in agreement with B-HKD. If you know anything about Korean law and their culture then these guys are toast.
Option #2 could have been to plug in the RNAV approach and use it for vertical guidance whilst conducting the visual approach..... what we call the Chinese glide slope on the side of the NAV display.
Option #3 could have been to look out the window and put the aiming point of 1000 ft in the bottom third of the windshield and keep it there and use the thrust to maintain a constant speed profile.
The inability to recognise a divergent approach (indisputable thru flight track v/s data) and the lack of a go around below a stabilised criteria height limit (again indisputable) is an indictment on the professionalism of the crew piloting the aircraft.
In response to BBK, I am in agreement with B-HKD. If you know anything about Korean law and their culture then these guys are toast.
Last edited by Mic Dundee; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:04.
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Altitude over the San Mateo Bridge
If you compare the (this was posted early in Post 114) the respective profiles of the descent comparing 6 July and 5 July...
Is there something missing on the ATC audio feeds? Why the rapid descent after being high over the S&M Bridge? To your point, something was way out of whack long before the 7 second mark.
Is there something missing on the ATC audio feeds? Why the rapid descent after being high over the S&M Bridge? To your point, something was way out of whack long before the 7 second mark.
Last edited by TachyonID; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:39. Reason: Mis-read Post 114
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Quote:
Asian pilots
Correct Silver. Some people groups, like Asian and Arab are notorious for having favourite sons (not daughters) shuffled through training and onto the line. The low competence levels exist in about 20-25% of locals, which is 20-25% too many for safety. Africa can be worse. These people end up with commands, which is when things become dangerous. This system does not function in Westernized nations.
(You can exclude the Japs from this generalization but a whole host of ME and Far East companies spring to mind. Just ask any Western trainer and you will learn this.)
This is not a racist comment; distinguishing different groups of people by their abilities or lack of is not racism. Air safety should never be politically correct.
Don't make me laugh! Can you verify this nonsense? If this is not racist than nothing is! I only hope this poster is an airchair ranter as the last thing I would want to do is fly with a headcase like this! Totally irrelevant to this thread in any case.
Asian pilots
Correct Silver. Some people groups, like Asian and Arab are notorious for having favourite sons (not daughters) shuffled through training and onto the line. The low competence levels exist in about 20-25% of locals, which is 20-25% too many for safety. Africa can be worse. These people end up with commands, which is when things become dangerous. This system does not function in Westernized nations.
(You can exclude the Japs from this generalization but a whole host of ME and Far East companies spring to mind. Just ask any Western trainer and you will learn this.)
This is not a racist comment; distinguishing different groups of people by their abilities or lack of is not racism. Air safety should never be politically correct.
Don't make me laugh! Can you verify this nonsense? If this is not racist than nothing is! I only hope this poster is an airchair ranter as the last thing I would want to do is fly with a headcase like this! Totally irrelevant to this thread in any case.
Have you ever lived or flown in Asia/Africa/Middle East? I only ask because my personal experience has verified his statements regarding nepotism over merit to be completely valid.
Last edited by nolimitholdem; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:14.
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Fire?
Not being familiar with a 777, what would have caused that intense fire? Didn't look like the fuel tanks ruptured and started the fire. Does the 777 carry LOX near the main cabin area or is there just that much flammable material in the cabin?
Not being familiar with a 777, what would have caused that intense fire? Didn't look like the fuel tanks ruptured and started the fire. Does the 777 carry LOX near the main cabin area or is there just that much flammable material in the cabin?
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If you compare the (this was posted early in the thread) the respective profiles of the descent comparing 6 July and 5 July, you'll see these guys actually were far below the usual G/S miles out from KSFO.
Last edited by A Squared; 7th Jul 2013 at 23:22.
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Automation-- or holes in the Swiss Cheese of Automation
To your point, Tango, breakdown in automation seems to be a common theme in these incidents. However, it also seems to implicate how these flight crews coped with modest (or more than modest) problems with the usual automation regime. I agree that on a CAVOK day any pilot worth his salt is supposed to be able to put it on the numbers. It just seems like we may have pilots (Turkish @ AMS and AF447 being the most obvious examples) that can't handle erroneous readings from the machinery.
I no longer sit up front, so don't have to endure the check rides any longer, but it seems like we have cases (maybe because other accident causes have been so effectively been mitigated) in recent incidents where personnel aren't properly trained to cope with limited automation anomalies. The FDR and CVR made clear that the guy in the left seat on AF447 didn't correlate the repeated STALL! STALL! STALL! voice warnings with actually doing something other than continually pulling back on the joystick from FL41 to FL-Pancake.
You guys will have to endure it, as I'm out, but I'd expect some blowback from these accidents-- Basically the public and authorities will be asking why pilots forget to operate the controls correctly when all this automation takes a slight dump on them. That's what I see in "Colgan", "Poldercrash", AF447 and (perhaps presumptuously) Asiana 214.
I no longer sit up front, so don't have to endure the check rides any longer, but it seems like we have cases (maybe because other accident causes have been so effectively been mitigated) in recent incidents where personnel aren't properly trained to cope with limited automation anomalies. The FDR and CVR made clear that the guy in the left seat on AF447 didn't correlate the repeated STALL! STALL! STALL! voice warnings with actually doing something other than continually pulling back on the joystick from FL41 to FL-Pancake.
You guys will have to endure it, as I'm out, but I'd expect some blowback from these accidents-- Basically the public and authorities will be asking why pilots forget to operate the controls correctly when all this automation takes a slight dump on them. That's what I see in "Colgan", "Poldercrash", AF447 and (perhaps presumptuously) Asiana 214.