Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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ILS OTS
Locked Door...
Do they never turn the ILS off at LHR when required for maintenance?
Airport authorities don't just switch off ILSs for the fun of it, there is always a good reason for it and coordination is done with ATC if possible.
The flip side is to not use a perfectly good 11,000 ft runway in gorgeous summer wx because the ILS is OTS. Then you have the lowered flow rate and delays to contend with.
Do they never turn the ILS off at LHR when required for maintenance?
Airport authorities don't just switch off ILSs for the fun of it, there is always a good reason for it and coordination is done with ATC if possible.
The flip side is to not use a perfectly good 11,000 ft runway in gorgeous summer wx because the ILS is OTS. Then you have the lowered flow rate and delays to contend with.
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As a frequent passenger, I was startled to learn that important landing services were not available at one of the world's busiest international airports. Moreover, that these had been U/S for several weeks, and pilots had been landing heavy aircraft by doing sums in their head?
Whatever pilots may think of this, as a person who pays to be flown I consider it absolutely unacceptable. I'm paying for technology that maximises my safety, not two tired pilots trying to divide by 300.
Are there any other major airports where there's no g/s or PAPIs?
Whatever pilots may think of this, as a person who pays to be flown I consider it absolutely unacceptable. I'm paying for technology that maximises my safety, not two tired pilots trying to divide by 300.
Are there any other major airports where there's no g/s or PAPIs?
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From my observations after 10 years flying with Korean Air and China Airlines the pilots fear visual approaches and in general cannot fly them. Going into SFO requires special training and not all pilots are scheduled for this trip.
I did not fly the 777 but took the 744 into SFO many times. This approach is tricky and requires care, with attention to the glide path. There are restrictions that force the pilot to start a quick descent at each gate so as not to get high or fast.
Many of the pilots I flew with (and I never flew for Asiana) will not disconnect the auto pilot until around 500-300 feet when everything is set and stabilized. The auto pilot cannot make the necessary changes in glide path on such a demanding approach well enough to remain stabilized but the pilots persist because they do not trust their own skills to do it manually. Manual flying to them is using FLCH.
They are terrified of the FOQA system and know that any deviation WILL be caught and they WILL be called in to explain. Staying out of any FOQA report regime is very important to them, and for example if a descent rate of 1200 fpm is needed to arrive over the runway threshold at 50 feet, they will still try to remain at 1000 fpm to avoid the FOQA, reducing speed to make it down in time. Simply flying the airplane never enters their minds.
They get no training on visual approaches. Especially on line flights. I am amazed that they allow flights into SFO without any glide path guidance.
The FOs hardly ever get a landing and have no skills in this area. They are next to useless in seeing and alerting the pilot of any impending screw up. Especially with the rigid seniority, even if they did see something going wrong they would not offer advice, nor would the pilot take it.
If you search these forums for references to Korean (etc) pilots being unable to actually fly their airplanes, and especially unable to fly visual approaches, you will find plenty. I (and others) have been warning you about this for many years. There are many more pilots out there like this poor guy, who was given no tools or training to handle a difficult task and probably exceeded his skill levels. I do not know this pilot and never flew with him and he could be a much better pilot than I could ever hope to be, so this is surmise only.
When I worked for those carriers I got free or reduced fare tickets for my family but I never used them. I am personally amazed that we don't see these carriers destroying perfectly serviceable airplanes more often. The holes in the Korean Swiss Cheese are always lined up.
I did not fly the 777 but took the 744 into SFO many times. This approach is tricky and requires care, with attention to the glide path. There are restrictions that force the pilot to start a quick descent at each gate so as not to get high or fast.
Many of the pilots I flew with (and I never flew for Asiana) will not disconnect the auto pilot until around 500-300 feet when everything is set and stabilized. The auto pilot cannot make the necessary changes in glide path on such a demanding approach well enough to remain stabilized but the pilots persist because they do not trust their own skills to do it manually. Manual flying to them is using FLCH.
They are terrified of the FOQA system and know that any deviation WILL be caught and they WILL be called in to explain. Staying out of any FOQA report regime is very important to them, and for example if a descent rate of 1200 fpm is needed to arrive over the runway threshold at 50 feet, they will still try to remain at 1000 fpm to avoid the FOQA, reducing speed to make it down in time. Simply flying the airplane never enters their minds.
They get no training on visual approaches. Especially on line flights. I am amazed that they allow flights into SFO without any glide path guidance.
The FOs hardly ever get a landing and have no skills in this area. They are next to useless in seeing and alerting the pilot of any impending screw up. Especially with the rigid seniority, even if they did see something going wrong they would not offer advice, nor would the pilot take it.
If you search these forums for references to Korean (etc) pilots being unable to actually fly their airplanes, and especially unable to fly visual approaches, you will find plenty. I (and others) have been warning you about this for many years. There are many more pilots out there like this poor guy, who was given no tools or training to handle a difficult task and probably exceeded his skill levels. I do not know this pilot and never flew with him and he could be a much better pilot than I could ever hope to be, so this is surmise only.
When I worked for those carriers I got free or reduced fare tickets for my family but I never used them. I am personally amazed that we don't see these carriers destroying perfectly serviceable airplanes more often. The holes in the Korean Swiss Cheese are always lined up.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by overthewing
Are there any other major airports where there's no g/s or PAPIs
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Boofhead is absolutely correct. And the Korean Airlines are not alone. One especially comes to mind with the same problem. Service Quality. Great service and clean new airplanes but what goes on up front is not for the faint of heart.
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Just hearing on the NTSB news conference that the call to do a go around happened between 1-2 seconds before impact. Thank goodness the crew are alive, because it's staggering why their speed and altitude, in relation to landing threshold, they did not initiate a go around sooner. 
PAPI lights were operational.
PAPI lights were operational.
Last edited by CityofFlight; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:56.
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NTSB confirmed slow on speed and shaker 4 seconds prior to impact. Go-Around called 1 second before impact. Engines spooled normally as they were impacting. Looks very damning as all other indications were okay.
Two people are dead, families are changed forever and numerous injured on a CAVU day.
Please everyone, FLY THE AIRPLANE.
Two people are dead, families are changed forever and numerous injured on a CAVU day.
Please everyone, FLY THE AIRPLANE.
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Info from the NTSB press conference.
CVR: Two hour longs, good recording, cleared for visual 28L and crew confirmed, configured for approach, flaps at 30°, gear down, target speed was 137 knots, no discussion of concerns between crew, 7 seconds prior to impact one crewmember called to increase speed, stick shaker at 4 seconds prior to inpact, 1.5 sec prior to impact go around alarm/call
FDR: During approach the throttles at idle, airspeed was below target airspeed, throttle advanced a few seconds before impact, engines appeared to respond normally
CVR: Two hour longs, good recording, cleared for visual 28L and crew confirmed, configured for approach, flaps at 30°, gear down, target speed was 137 knots, no discussion of concerns between crew, 7 seconds prior to impact one crewmember called to increase speed, stick shaker at 4 seconds prior to inpact, 1.5 sec prior to impact go around alarm/call
FDR: During approach the throttles at idle, airspeed was below target airspeed, throttle advanced a few seconds before impact, engines appeared to respond normally
Last edited by Chaos81; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:52.
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GASF Final Report
Go-Around Safety Forum Jun 18th, 2013 conclusions.
An attention getter to all of us pilots.
Worthy of a careful reading.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/2325.pdf
An attention getter to all of us pilots.
Worthy of a careful reading.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/2325.pdf
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Sanity, at last.
Whatever pilots may think of this, as a person who pays to be flown I consider it absolutely unacceptable.
Safety first does not mean "safety unless the airport operator thinks it's too much bother".
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This still from the CNN video suggests that the plane did indeed do a 360, and may even have pirouetted on its nose?
Edited to add: sorry - how do I get a photo to actually appear?
Edited to add: sorry - how do I get a photo to actually appear?
Last edited by overthewing; 7th Jul 2013 at 21:12.
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so why is no-one talking about similarities with british Airways crash of their 777 when there was no power increase final? iced up fuel lines thought to be probable cause. Not a hint on any network that that might explain it all. and the missing engine? Torn off by the sea wall. everyone is ignoring its loss. if the same reason would have high seriosness for Boeing 777 fleet!
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As I stated in post #155 A/T mode will be telling? Poorly handled visual approach (wrt AFDS, A/T) beyond stable limits and beyond the capability of this crew has to be considered.
