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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 7th Jul 2013, 11:46
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I've never felt comfortable with Prof Reason's "swiss cheese safety" description. It implies that environments such as aviation and medical care are naturally benign, with multiple protections in place, all functioning to optimum. Sounds nice on paper.
You're looking at it wrong. The Swiss cheese is in slices. Each slice has holes in it, which reflects the understanding that the process or check that it represents will not catch everything. However, with enough good slices, there won't be a hole through the whole stack and something will catch all the errors. Sometimes, as with this one, there may be extra holes in some of the layers, such as "airfield landing aids not functioning" and you've got a failure path all the way through because it's lined up with "pilot didn't notice X" or "Instrument gave incorrect reading" or similar. Sometimes it's as far back as "pilots were trained to do something which turns out to be wrong" (AA 191) and the fix is to teach them not to do that any more.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 11:47
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I'm not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but Goodrich are the supplier of FADEC to both Asiana and British Airways engines.
Judging by the "accounts" and "animation" this crew may well have had thrust issues over the approach lights.
Eerily similar to BA at LHR.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 11:47
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I can try ... but here is the direct link to it ...


http://www.koreadaily.com/_data/arti...0008409256.jpg
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 11:48
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ADS-B

@AerocatS2A

Does anyone know how accurate the FlightAware data is and where it actually comes from? The last two data points for the accident aircraft have very slow speeds of 109 and 85 knots. Although the altitude still reads as one or two hundred feet I'm wondering if the aircraft was actually on the ground at that point and was sliding to a stop, or if they were airborne and stalling, or if the data just isn't good enough to be drawing any conclusions from it at all.
As DaveReidUK said, the FA sources is the ADS-B transmission from the equipped aircraft. The source is likely to come from FR24. The source seems to be a feeder at, or near KOAK. The last speed recorded (85kt) from this source is the same that have been mentioned here and indicated by FA.
The last "good" position of the aircraft has been received at:
37.6123 -122.3595 with an altitude of 75ft and speed 113kt for-384 fpm. The position is reliable, but the other parameters are delayed ones because the a/c was on the ground at these coordinates. The previous ADS-B received transmission indicates a position at 37.5954 -122.319 (approx 3925m/2.12NM from 28L threshold) at 1100ft with 149kt and -1535fpm rod. The previous was received at 37.5726 -122.2652 at 9307m/5NM from THR with 2175ft/186kt/-1152fpm.
The very last position received of the a/c is not coherent because of the receiver/feeder software and/or FR24 server. Some software or setting allows a "projection" of the aircraft and the server may also react with some delays.
I think that the wreck is at 37.6135 -122.3646 from what I can see on various TV footage.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 11:57
  #405 (permalink)  
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Someone, a few pages back, queried how we knew the PAPIs were out:

NOTAM SFO 07/046

!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX

also:
NOTAM SFO 06/005

!SFO 06/005 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
CREATED: 01 Jun 2013 13:40:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX

For all current SFO NOTAMs: NOTAMS for San Francisco International Airport
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:11
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Originally Posted by roving
I can try ... but here is the direct link to it ...


http://www.koreadaily.com/_data/arti...0008409256.jpg


It looks like your post got deleted. Probably because it was over-sized. Here it is re-sized.


Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 7th Jul 2013 at 12:14.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:14
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:15
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:22
  #409 (permalink)  
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Still interested in the PAPI situation
Originally Posted by gg
]NOTAM SFO 07/046

!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
- that is post crash probably due to damage.

Post #74 says 'not working' and post #78 says 'working'?? Any NOTAMS around to clarify?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:23
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Why would they notam the PAPIs out of action post-crash when the whole AD was notam'd closed?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:25
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OZ CEO: Plane not at fault

Plane, engines not at fault in Asiana crash: CEO

Not sure why that guy would say this in his position. Lends credibility to the hypothesis being developed here.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:26
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Elcan made this comment;

"Some bright spark pointed out that there's been hundreds of succesful approaches since these works have been underway with no mishaps but this is nothing more than the amount of time it took for the inevitable to happen.

I suspect we will find out in the next year or two as legal due process following this accident gets underway that operating an international airport at which aircraft operated by airlines with poor safety records (like OZ) arrive after 10, 12, 14 hour and longer flights, without a temporary PAPI or VASIS let alone a glideslope and expecting nothing to go wrong means they are complicit in the end result.

Applying aggressive ATC standards, which are aimed at the level of familiarity of the locals who operate into the field on a regular basis, to these hapless foreign operators after ULR flights, knowing they are not the sharpest, does not help."

I am frankly staggered that an international airfield is allowed to operate in such a fashion, no ILS no PAPIS and frequent very high feed-ins due to a compressed and difficult airspace situation. There is a lot more to this tragedy than the initial reaction implies.

Last edited by nigegilb; 8th Jul 2013 at 03:42.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:30
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The last "good" position of the aircraft has been received at:
37.6123 -122.3595 with an altitude of 75ft and speed 113kt for-384 fpm. The position is reliable, but the other parameters are delayed ones because the a/c was on the ground at these coordinates.
Yes, while the aircraft is airborne it sends position/altitude and groundspeed/track angle in separate transmissions, not at the same time. The software that produces the data feed used by FlightAware and other online resources wrongly combines this data so as to imply that those value are sent simultaneously.

The previous ADS-B received transmission indicates a position at 37.5954 -122.319 (approx 3925m/2.12NM from 28L threshold) at 1100ft with
For reasons I don't understand, the FlightAware data quotes height at 100' intervals, despite the fact that the aircraft is sending it in 25' increments.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:33
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According to CNN, the two deceased individuals found on the runway were both holders of Chinese passports. Would flight attendants have had Chinese passports?
Asiana has confirmed their identities. Both are 16-year old Chinese students.

Last edited by Jazz Hands; 7th Jul 2013 at 12:33.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:46
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Be careful what you are promoting, Uplinker. It is comments like this that have new f/os playing with the FMC at 200' on final approach (visual or otherwise).

This was a visual approach. The big picture is outside, and not in the cockpit. At most you need a quick glance at the airspeed every 10 seconds or so, that's all. The NFP should be making a call out of 'on profile' or not. And we all trust the NFP, don't we?

Remember power and attitude? A stable aircraft on profile will remain, well, stable and on profile. And if you cannot feel an engine rollback or a windshear change through the seat of your pants, well perhaps you are one of those who should have gone into the bicycle courier business.


Er, hang on a minute, silver. I was replying to someone who said they didn't keep the airspeed in their scan. Don't you think that's important? I certainly do !

Power and attitude flying is valid, but are you really telling me that you set a fixed power from memory and then leave it and only look out of the window? Of course you don't. How do you know if the A/C is stable if you're not looking at the instrumentation??? And what about following ground speed mini?

A visual approach still needs you to look at the instruments. It does not imply that anyone should be programming the FMGEC at 200'

Last edited by Uplinker; 7th Jul 2013 at 13:03.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:47
  #416 (permalink)  
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CAPTJN
What... on a CAVOK day!?!? Ya gotta be kidding me. What in the hell is so difficult for a so-called competent airman to accomplish a visual approach? As a check airman, a skipper has to demonstrate a visual approach without the use of an ILS, VOR, ADF, or automation. They are required to land in the touchdown zone on centerline. What excuse could they offer had all the airport experienced a total power failure, ei, primary, and backup generators, especially under ideal CAVOK conditions?


Its obvious that you are a "little Fokker pilot" flying 6 sector days, 10X5.
Think out of your box to guys who are in the bin through the nite for 11 hrs.
Then in the morning sun, having to shoot an approach with no profile guidance. And guess what its their 2nd leg in 2 weeks.

SFO is darned stupid to notam their way to shutting down multiple aids, leaving a foreign crew, who probably last came to their field 4 months ago, barely able to speak English, the luxury of a visual approach.

If this is not asking for it, you can have the cheese, and eat it.

Last edited by rdr; 7th Jul 2013 at 12:49.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:50
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What is a slam dunk approach? Get 'em in and down asap?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 12:54
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With every year that passes people seem to get ruder, greedier and more selfish.

I can't see this situation changing any time soon, and even here on this thread we have people saying "but what about my medication" and "what about my passport". If I am stuck behind you in a smoke filled cabin I am more concerned about getting the hell out of there ASAP than your need to save a trip to the local pharmacist and embassy

I think there is an easy and affordable answer - lock the overhead bins for takeoff and landing, and tell people that they will only be unlocked after takeoff when the seatbelt light is out, and also when the A/C is chocked at the gate with the engines stopped. It might also help stop the increasing number of halfwits who feel the need to be stood in the aisle with their bag before the A/C has even arrived at the gate.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 13:06
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This is a fascinating eyewitness account from the BBC, with the last part f the approach observed and described - the man mentions that the aircraft control " seemed quite wobbly" compared to the usual aircraft he observes living in the area.

BBC News - San Francisco Asiana Airlines crash: 'Plane was out of control'
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 13:08
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PAPI Glide path guidance is mandatory for an RPT jet ( over here, anyway )

Therefore, brother Despegue, it must be kinda important
....... You'd think, huh

But since you reckon it's an over-rated enhancement for folks of lesser ability than yourself, then perhaps you can pen a strongly worded letter to the controlling Authority seeking a dispensation when flying overseas.

Last edited by Buttscratcher; 7th Jul 2013 at 13:23.
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