Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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"we need to nip these liberal fantasists in the bud"
I 100% agree that there is no place in aviation for either political correctness or nepotism, but nipping people in the bud just because they have a different position smacks a bit of 'captains right mate'
I 100% agree that there is no place in aviation for either political correctness or nepotism, but nipping people in the bud just because they have a different position smacks a bit of 'captains right mate'
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Airbus and Boeing need to grapple with the problem of poor handling skills v autopilot usage.
Airbus for instance are quite clear on providing systems and manuals for manual flying / visual circuits. It is the airlines that fail to provide the training / practice / and currency - and above all instill a culture of "fear" of taking some/all automatics out to keep skills current. And regulators on failing to keep the airlines in check?
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Some are not so quick to lay the blame on the aircrew ...
This from a US metals investors forum ...
Asiana Flight 214 Incident at SFO | TF Metals Report
see also this link referred to in the link above ...
Feds Warn of Delays at SFO Due to Sequester Cuts | KQED News Fix
However the US NTSB 'shares out' the blame, the simple fact is that neither ILS and PAPI were operational. Added to which the number of air traffic controllers on duty may have been reduced by the US sequester (the automatic budget cuts applied proportionately to all Federal spending, following the failure of Congress to agree the President's budget).
This from a US metals investors forum ...
Asiana Flight 214 Incident at SFO | TF Metals Report
see also this link referred to in the link above ...
Feds Warn of Delays at SFO Due to Sequester Cuts | KQED News Fix
However the US NTSB 'shares out' the blame, the simple fact is that neither ILS and PAPI were operational. Added to which the number of air traffic controllers on duty may have been reduced by the US sequester (the automatic budget cuts applied proportionately to all Federal spending, following the failure of Congress to agree the President's budget).
Last edited by roving; 7th Jul 2013 at 10:52.
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I stand corrected, Mr. Squirrel:
It seems Mr. Lee was the handling pilot.
Originally Posted by NYTimes
South Korean transport ministry said Sunday that there were four crew members assigned to the cockpit.
It identified the chief pilot as Lee Jeong-min, who has worked at Asiana since 1996.
The co-pilot, Lee Kang-guk, joined Asiana in 1994 as a pilot trainee and won his passenger jet pilot’s license in 2001
It identified the chief pilot as Lee Jeong-min, who has worked at Asiana since 1996.
The co-pilot, Lee Kang-guk, joined Asiana in 1994 as a pilot trainee and won his passenger jet pilot’s license in 2001
Last edited by JAARule; 7th Jul 2013 at 10:49.
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2 pax ejected from the rear. I suspect the cabbies in the rear where able to walk away due the multi point harness?
If this was another CFIT then I think the going rate for western trained pilots just went up. Sad affairs that one can't land an aircraft in cavok. That's real basic stuff and criminal that people have lost their lives....
If this was another CFIT then I think the going rate for western trained pilots just went up. Sad affairs that one can't land an aircraft in cavok. That's real basic stuff and criminal that people have lost their lives....
Last edited by McBruce; 7th Jul 2013 at 10:55.
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As a passenger: If the crew is commanding an emergency evacuation, and you are in the aisle attempting to recover baggage and are between me and the nearest exit, I will do my best to disable you, and if you get trampled by the rest of the passengers on their way out, TFB.
I understand that there are cultural differences that may lead many passengers to place inadvisable value on their baggage. If so, it is the responsibility of the carrier to staff their cabin crew adequately to ensure that such passengers are motivated effectively.
I can hear the protests already. "They'd need a team of UFC fighters to get everyone off the airplane in good time!".
Too bad. It's a safety issue. Either correct it, or stop flying. If every carrier that encountered the issue stopped flying, the market would adapt to deal with it. Some people could no longer afford to fly. The rest would pay what it took to get where they needed to go.
I expect some more one post wonders to come on and start crying about racism. It's not about race. It's about culture. This also applies to CRM. I suspect that this will be lost on those commenters.
I understand that there are cultural differences that may lead many passengers to place inadvisable value on their baggage. If so, it is the responsibility of the carrier to staff their cabin crew adequately to ensure that such passengers are motivated effectively.
I can hear the protests already. "They'd need a team of UFC fighters to get everyone off the airplane in good time!".
Too bad. It's a safety issue. Either correct it, or stop flying. If every carrier that encountered the issue stopped flying, the market would adapt to deal with it. Some people could no longer afford to fly. The rest would pay what it took to get where they needed to go.
I expect some more one post wonders to come on and start crying about racism. It's not about race. It's about culture. This also applies to CRM. I suspect that this will be lost on those commenters.
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You're asking for trouble when you are expected to perform optimally after an 11 hr pacific crossing with the ILS and VASIS turned off, regardless of the CAVOK conditions.
Aviation safety is about catering for the weakest in the chain through prevention, not a cowboy can do attitude, so prevalent in the profession.
Aviation safety is about catering for the weakest in the chain through prevention, not a cowboy can do attitude, so prevalent in the profession.
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"Be careful what you are promoting, Uplinker. It is comments like this that have new f/os playing with the FMC at 200' on final approach (visual or otherwise).
This was a visual approach. The big picture is outside, and not in the cockpit. At most you need a quick glance at the airspeed every 10 seconds or so, that's all. The NFP should be making a call out of 'on profile' or not. And we all trust the NFP, don't we?
Remember power and attitude? A stable aircraft on profile will remain, well, stable and on profile. And if you cannot feel an engine rollback or a windshear change through the seat of your pants, well perhaps you are one of those who should have gone into the bicycle courier business"
Silver strata whilst I very much respect your opinion, I think there is a huge difference between a pilot going in to the FMC at 200' and a pilot scanning his airspeed, VSI and ED coming down the approach as Uplinker seemed to promote.
Even on a visual approach, that basic scan has to remain surely, I'm not talking about a complete heads in, but as you said a glance every few seconds. A stable aircraft on profile coming down a G/s is one thing, one where the power remains constant and the attitude is changing to get the "picture" is another.
I don't think anyone at this stage can conclusively point the finger at anything. Particularly not the pilots, because if some unknown mechanical failure has occurred or other phenomena then in a few days time we could be commending the pilots fantastic flying ability on these very pages. If the investigation shows pilot error, then this should become about identifying why those errors occurred. None of us are infallible, and none of us perfect, however learning from others mistakes can make us more aware of those short comings.
This was a visual approach. The big picture is outside, and not in the cockpit. At most you need a quick glance at the airspeed every 10 seconds or so, that's all. The NFP should be making a call out of 'on profile' or not. And we all trust the NFP, don't we?
Remember power and attitude? A stable aircraft on profile will remain, well, stable and on profile. And if you cannot feel an engine rollback or a windshear change through the seat of your pants, well perhaps you are one of those who should have gone into the bicycle courier business"
Silver strata whilst I very much respect your opinion, I think there is a huge difference between a pilot going in to the FMC at 200' and a pilot scanning his airspeed, VSI and ED coming down the approach as Uplinker seemed to promote.
Even on a visual approach, that basic scan has to remain surely, I'm not talking about a complete heads in, but as you said a glance every few seconds. A stable aircraft on profile coming down a G/s is one thing, one where the power remains constant and the attitude is changing to get the "picture" is another.
I don't think anyone at this stage can conclusively point the finger at anything. Particularly not the pilots, because if some unknown mechanical failure has occurred or other phenomena then in a few days time we could be commending the pilots fantastic flying ability on these very pages. If the investigation shows pilot error, then this should become about identifying why those errors occurred. None of us are infallible, and none of us perfect, however learning from others mistakes can make us more aware of those short comings.
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Aviation safety is about catering for the weakest in the chain through prevention, not a cowboy can do attitude, so prevalent in the profession.
The important thing is that in considering safety, the after action review should be ruthless and impartial. Just because one side erred does not mean the other should be absolved. In the case of air accidents, there are often numerous factors which arranged themselves just right to kill people. It's a dangerous mindset that calls on failures on one side to acquit the other.
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From the few eye-witness reports I've read/heard, it doesn't sound as if the cabin crew were organising the evacuation. It sounds as if the passengers were managing the situation largely by themselves. So there may not have been many loud voices shouting 'No hand luggage! Jump!'
If Korean flight crew are dubiously trained, is the cabin crew training any better?
I always travel with my passport, documents, money and cards in a small pouch that I keep with me and usually have attached to my person at take-off and landing. I'm quite surprised that this isn't standard advice from airlines, and equally surprised that duty-free outlets don't cash in with sales of small cross-body pouches.
If Korean flight crew are dubiously trained, is the cabin crew training any better?
I always travel with my passport, documents, money and cards in a small pouch that I keep with me and usually have attached to my person at take-off and landing. I'm quite surprised that this isn't standard advice from airlines, and equally surprised that duty-free outlets don't cash in with sales of small cross-body pouches.
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As I don't have the charts here and can only work off what is on the net can someone confirm for me that the last two data points on the Flight Aware track log for the speeds of 109 and 85 knots are actually west of the 28 threshold? That would explain the really slow speeds.
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Silverstrata
Do you have access to the FDR and CVR? Are you involved in the NTSB investigation? In fact, is it worth even conducting the investigation. It is obvious that it was just a case of slitty eyed incompetents who screwed up. Not MY view obviously as I'll explain.
Alternatively, we could let the NTSB get on with their job in a thorough, methodical and professional manner. I'm not saying that the crew did not or could not have made errors but in the absence of any info I would be a moron to make accusations without evidence. You don't have that evidence either but it doesn't stop you making unsubstantiated claims.
I'm well aware of the alleged culture in some Asian carriers. Maybe that will prove to be a factor but this is way too early to make that accusation. The word prejudiced, and I would apply that to you, is appropriate because you are "pre judging".
Regarding visual approaches I don't think it's right that a long haul crew, after a long duty, who don't, by the nature of long haul flying get much practise landing have to fly an approach without any guidance. I love visual approaches....if I'm in a Cub or Chipmunk! But after a long day or night not conducive to flight safety.
The guys who have experience on the 777 who have posted regarding the modes pertaining FLCH, A/T etc are contributing something worthwhile. Thank you.
Do you have access to the FDR and CVR? Are you involved in the NTSB investigation? In fact, is it worth even conducting the investigation. It is obvious that it was just a case of slitty eyed incompetents who screwed up. Not MY view obviously as I'll explain.
Alternatively, we could let the NTSB get on with their job in a thorough, methodical and professional manner. I'm not saying that the crew did not or could not have made errors but in the absence of any info I would be a moron to make accusations without evidence. You don't have that evidence either but it doesn't stop you making unsubstantiated claims.
I'm well aware of the alleged culture in some Asian carriers. Maybe that will prove to be a factor but this is way too early to make that accusation. The word prejudiced, and I would apply that to you, is appropriate because you are "pre judging".
Regarding visual approaches I don't think it's right that a long haul crew, after a long duty, who don't, by the nature of long haul flying get much practise landing have to fly an approach without any guidance. I love visual approaches....if I'm in a Cub or Chipmunk! But after a long day or night not conducive to flight safety.
The guys who have experience on the 777 who have posted regarding the modes pertaining FLCH, A/T etc are contributing something worthwhile. Thank you.
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I've never felt comfortable with Prof Reason's "swiss cheese safety" description. It implies that environments such as aviation and medical care are naturally benign, with multiple protections in place, all functioning to optimum. Sounds nice on paper.
My experience of adverse incidents in both industries is that often "protections" are chronically suboptimal or below the reasonable level at which they can function as genuine "cheese", and many situations have at best only one layer of protection before disaster. Skilled operators see situations where protections are weak at an early stage in the evolution of the potential problem.
So.. if the papi is down, the ILS is down, you are forced to fly a difficult late approach profile, you may not practice hand flown landings with A/T disconnected, the PNF may not want to tell you "low and slow" and he/she are tired anyway, theres a bit of language problem and not much familiarity with the local environment, etc etc etc ... then there is not that much cheese around in the first place, just sub-threshold protections.
My experience of adverse incidents in both industries is that often "protections" are chronically suboptimal or below the reasonable level at which they can function as genuine "cheese", and many situations have at best only one layer of protection before disaster. Skilled operators see situations where protections are weak at an early stage in the evolution of the potential problem.
So.. if the papi is down, the ILS is down, you are forced to fly a difficult late approach profile, you may not practice hand flown landings with A/T disconnected, the PNF may not want to tell you "low and slow" and he/she are tired anyway, theres a bit of language problem and not much familiarity with the local environment, etc etc etc ... then there is not that much cheese around in the first place, just sub-threshold protections.
Last edited by Mimpe; 7th Jul 2013 at 11:39.
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it might sound flippant, but many of you probably havnt considered the problem foreign pax at any American airport would have without passport/visa/est etc.
With the current mentality at the USA gateways, I can see many nationalities not being let in (maybe none) and that could be a *major* problem for many people. Pilots/cabin crew are probably ok as they are on a checked list afaik. The ability to be able to contact people (I.e. the phone as I cant remember numbers either) is also essential. And as for money (ATM cards)....
It is a huge incentive to get the bag with the passports, money and phone. rollabags is a bit far though....
Perhaps passengers should be given a small clear plastic bag to put in phone, money and passport which they can keep with them whilst on the plane.
With the current mentality at the USA gateways, I can see many nationalities not being let in (maybe none) and that could be a *major* problem for many people. Pilots/cabin crew are probably ok as they are on a checked list afaik. The ability to be able to contact people (I.e. the phone as I cant remember numbers either) is also essential. And as for money (ATM cards)....
It is a huge incentive to get the bag with the passports, money and phone. rollabags is a bit far though....
Perhaps passengers should be given a small clear plastic bag to put in phone, money and passport which they can keep with them whilst on the plane.