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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:44
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Double engine failure on short final would account for this. Am I alone in finding the official cause of the BA 777 crash at Heathrow (ice in fuel causing both engines to fail at exactly the same moment in two seperate fuel systems) a tad unlikely?

After a working lifetime in software I know wher my money was for that one. Is this the inevitable repeat?
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:45
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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If nothing else, this accident shows that even on a nice clear sunny day you can still be bitten.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:47
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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In the Navy we used to call this a ramp strike, a far more serious beast than a typical tail strike. Question is why?

I wouldn't immediately rule out a BA38 type scenario. Sure it's different engines and a warmer cruise - but BA38 wasn't meant to happen either, could be a new and unwelcome data point.

Visual approaches into SFO can be "sporty" for a big jet and a tired crew. Add that to no PAPIs or ILS GS; or much hand/ visual flying currency and an "interesting" approach is certainly possible.

Don't see how briefing TCH is of any use at all on a visual approach (not too sure it's of any use anyway, I use the window).
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:48
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Profiles above are interesting, possible Autopilot capture at RNAV minima followed by high rate of descent after disconnect?
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:52
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seems they were trying to correct an overshoot initial glide path...
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:55
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Too Low

No ILS glide slope and no PAPI. It is obvious what happened. VNAV is a good back up for a visual approach, unfortunately the "poor mans" glide slope is on the Navigation Display and not of the PFD (Pilot Flight Director), were it should be. Boeing is just getting around to fixing this with NPS (NAVIGATION PERFORMANCE SCALES) on the PFD. NPS is a new display feature that integrates the current LNAV (Lateral Navigation) and VNAV (Vertical Navigation).
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:56
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Am I alone in finding the official cause of the BA 777 crash at Heathrow (ice in fuel causing both engines to fail at exactly the same moment in two seperate fuel systems) a tad unlikely?
Given that the same fuel was being sent to both engines, to a common (flawed) design of heat exchanger, and both heat exchangers had experienced exactly the same combination of conditions, I think the outcome of the investigation can be taken as sound...
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:56
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Pax evacuating with bags

The investigation will need to carefully examine the behavior of the crew and their leadership and guidance to the passengers.
Looking at footage/pics of other evaluations, it appears that many passengers ignore the commands of the crew to leave everything and get out. There is nothing a crew member can do if a passenger gets to the door with a bag as attempting to take it off them would only slow the evacuation further and the crew at the doors have nowhere to put the bags.

What needs to be investigated is not the behaviour and leadership of the crew, given that it seems all but 2 people survived and exited, but rather the behaviour of the passengers who seem to value their possessions, thereby placing others at risk.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:56
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Here we go again with the BA accident..

For thos who are unware.

The BA -200ER had RR Trent 895s.

The OZ -200ER involved in the crash has PW4090s.

United has been operating the very same engine since '97 and has for more than a decade operated polar flights (ORD-HKG-ORD) (ORD-PEK-ORD) etc.. and there has bever been an issue with heat exchangers freezing on the PW4090.

What many fail to believe, and yet is nothing but cold hard facts, is that the same culture that brought down all the Korean Airlines aircraft in the 80/90s continues to flourish at both KAL and Asiana.

I suggest searching/reading some first hand experiences on PPRuNe. If you want slme video proof, look at what these clowns do on the regular when forced to conduct a manual landing at notoriously challenging airports such as Narita.

If the guy in the right seat was PNF, theres no doubt he didnt dare speak up to the Captain.

To late to cover up loss of face now.

Indeed.. a professional crew doesnt need a glideslope/VGSI/FMS to land in CAVOK on a 11,000+ ft runway.

These guys on the other hand..need all the above. Unless FMA shows LAND3 its

Last edited by B-HKD; 6th Jul 2013 at 22:01.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:58
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I flew for these guys for several years. Whilst the facts are not known and it could be anything at this stage, I will say that the majority of the Korean Pilots were lost without the G/S. Also, most of them had[have] a tendency to push forward and undershoot the Glide Slope in the last couple hundred feet in order to have a lower angle in the hope of the "smooth landing". These guys were obsessed with the smooth landing. Word got around about me, and when they flew with me they knew never to undershoot when I was next to them.

I am saddened by this news, although not surprised based on my personal experience.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:58
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Automaticitis.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 21:58
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Just a thought. Are the DFDR and the CVR located in the tail of the 777?
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:01
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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if a BOEING 777 CREW can not land safely on a long rwy with VFR conditions, then we have a big problem... something happened there, will see next weeks informations.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:01
  #134 (permalink)  
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Early images showed smoke rising from 'beyond' the otherwise intact fuselage.

Fire seems to have been confined to the roof of the fuselage and not immediately after impact - presumably initiated by the starboard engine (if, indeed, the engine on the starboard side of the crash site was the starboard engine, as seems likely).

No fire in the wings.

How quickly did the firefighters arrive?
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:02
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Fantastic weather

I'm sitting here about 10 miles away from SFO, and it would be hard to imagine much better conditions for flying. It's a bright day, clear as a bell with no clouds or fog to be seen. The temperature is around 72 degrees. There is a light breeze that can move the leaves on the trees a little, but nothing more than that.

I don't see how there could be much to complain about regarding conditions.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:05
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Can see that the fire was caused by the number two engine buring through the forward cargo hold,
But what caused the fire on the other side of the runway?
Also have to ask where are all the t/e flaps off the left wing? and Number 1 engine are they both sitting in SF Bay rapped around a couple of the approach lights??

Last edited by Cool banana; 6th Jul 2013 at 22:07.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:06
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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I flew for these guys for several years. Whilst the facts are not known and it could be anything at this stage, I will say that the majority of the Korean Pilots were lost without the G/S. Also, most of them had[have] a tendency to push forward and undershoot the Glide Slope in the last couple hundred feet in order to have a lower angle in the hope of the "smooth landing". These guys were obsessed with the smooth landing. Word got around about me, and when they flew with me they knew never to undershoot when I was next to them.

I am saddened by this news, although not surprised based on my personal experience.


Track Log - last 120 secs

19:26 37.5847 -122.2940 298° West 178kts 205mph 1,700ft -1,020 rate Descending
19:26 37.5900 -122.3070 297° West 169 194 1,400 -1,380 Descending
19:27 37.5988 -122.3270 299° West 145 167 800 -1,380 Descending
19:27 37.6016 -122.3340 297° West 141 162 600 -1,320 Descending
19:27 37.6045 -122.3410 298° West 134 154 400 -900 Descending
19:27 37.6073 -122.3480 297° West 123 142 300 -840 Descending
19:27 37.6103 -122.3550 298° West 109 125 100 -120 Descending
19:28 37.6170 -122.3740 294° West 85 98 200 120 Climbing
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:06
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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If Paper Tigers Google Earth images are accurate it looks like they mismanaged their visual approach and ended up significantly above a three degree descent path. Could they have dirtied the aircraft fully and started down with a very high descent rate until very short final, engines at idle, and then trying to arrest the descent too late?
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:10
  #139 (permalink)  
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Are the DFDR and the CVR located in the tail of the 777? - SoS

Yes, they're in the unpressurized area of the empennage behind the pressure bulkhead. The exact locations of the SSFDR and CVR varies per type. They will almost certainly have lost all data after the impact due to the separation but the important data will likely be in pristine condition.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 22:13
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Canyonblue737
Lack of PAPI and GS in beautiful VFR causing a visual to be a complex maneuver in particular in a modern glass cockpit aircraft with a trained air carrier crew is laughable.
Almost as 'laughable' as an A330 crew in alternate law being unable to maintain straight and level in cruise at night. Luckily this one was survivable.
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