Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
re: evacuation
Points regarding checklists have already been covered, but regarding the evacuation...
The purser has been quoted as saying that it felt like "a very hard landing" and that the aircraft "swayed to the left then swayed to the right". This, to me, seems to indicate the possibility that those at the front got far less of a rough ride than those in the rear. Probably not even realising at first the tail had been lost.
FA training is to wait for assessment by the flight crew on necessity to evacuate UNLESS there is a major hull breach or self sustaining fire. In this case we know the cabin fire did not start until after the evac did- as for the hull breach as far as the purser knew it was intact. She presumably found out otherwise from her crew on moving around the aircraft. Just because the pax might feel they need to get out doesn't always mean it's safer. Sometimes that 30sec to evaluate and shut down properly may in itself save lives. Look at the R2 door. Engine right outside. Had a pax opened that it would have been game over a lot sooner if not for the crew. Even with the slide u/s. Don't be so quick to judge the timing of the evacuation, there's a lot of factors that come into play
The purser has been quoted as saying that it felt like "a very hard landing" and that the aircraft "swayed to the left then swayed to the right". This, to me, seems to indicate the possibility that those at the front got far less of a rough ride than those in the rear. Probably not even realising at first the tail had been lost.
FA training is to wait for assessment by the flight crew on necessity to evacuate UNLESS there is a major hull breach or self sustaining fire. In this case we know the cabin fire did not start until after the evac did- as for the hull breach as far as the purser knew it was intact. She presumably found out otherwise from her crew on moving around the aircraft. Just because the pax might feel they need to get out doesn't always mean it's safer. Sometimes that 30sec to evaluate and shut down properly may in itself save lives. Look at the R2 door. Engine right outside. Had a pax opened that it would have been game over a lot sooner if not for the crew. Even with the slide u/s. Don't be so quick to judge the timing of the evacuation, there's a lot of factors that come into play
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Given the very informative posts about what has been described here by B777 pilots as the FLCH 'trap', one of the pdf files on this link may help better understand what is being described.
http://www.smartcockpit.com/search.p...1739j1574693j4
http://www.smartcockpit.com/search.p...1739j1574693j4
Last edited by roving; 9th Jul 2013 at 08:20.
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"This reminds me of the C5 incident at McGuire AirForce base several years ago where there were multiple pilots in the cockpit and not one of them noticed that they shut down the wrong engine resulting in an inpact about a mile short of the runway.
Does everyone think that someone else is watching the ship and they just tune out?"
Platinum Flyer,
That crash was at Dover and is now part of USAF's CRM course, seen that video every six months for the 5 years I flew flight test and heard the SIB briefed briefed twice. It's not a bad accident to reference since there were a lot of senior guys with lots of time on C-5's and a few with very little time on AMP. Although, in their case they were dealing with an emergency at the time.
As for the cultural stuff ruffling so many feathers, Geert Hofstede is the Dutch researcher who came up with the Cultural Dimensions Theory (Power Distance), which is used by the military and taught in organizational studies. His work is based off of extensive research and does have some rigor behind it. That said, it is a framework and useful as a guide to understand cross-cultural behaviors, studied it in the military and in business school. Folks referencing pier reviewed literature and applying its framework aren't racist so long as they stick to the cultural aspects.
Getting back on topic, there are multiple dimensions of that framework that when combined would interact badly with the dangerous behaviors/attitudes taught in CRM. One could argue these were present in US military aviation in the 50's and 60's and contributed to the high accident rates during those years. Training changed in the late 60's early 70's and began to emphasize the CRM principles and the rates came down. Significant to commercial aviation since a lot of the pilots come with military training/background and the airlines take ques from the military.
Cheers
Does everyone think that someone else is watching the ship and they just tune out?"
Platinum Flyer,
That crash was at Dover and is now part of USAF's CRM course, seen that video every six months for the 5 years I flew flight test and heard the SIB briefed briefed twice. It's not a bad accident to reference since there were a lot of senior guys with lots of time on C-5's and a few with very little time on AMP. Although, in their case they were dealing with an emergency at the time.
As for the cultural stuff ruffling so many feathers, Geert Hofstede is the Dutch researcher who came up with the Cultural Dimensions Theory (Power Distance), which is used by the military and taught in organizational studies. His work is based off of extensive research and does have some rigor behind it. That said, it is a framework and useful as a guide to understand cross-cultural behaviors, studied it in the military and in business school. Folks referencing pier reviewed literature and applying its framework aren't racist so long as they stick to the cultural aspects.
Getting back on topic, there are multiple dimensions of that framework that when combined would interact badly with the dangerous behaviors/attitudes taught in CRM. One could argue these were present in US military aviation in the 50's and 60's and contributed to the high accident rates during those years. Training changed in the late 60's early 70's and began to emphasize the CRM principles and the rates came down. Significant to commercial aviation since a lot of the pilots come with military training/background and the airlines take ques from the military.
Cheers
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Sometimes that 30sec to evaluate and shut down properly may in itself save lives.
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Please tell me you are joking?
SFO, RWY, ILS, NAV, 28L, are all terms that are used to input data into a FMC and should be familiar to all pilots flying modern automated aircraft regardless of whether they are native English speakers or not?
SFO, RWY, ILS, NAV, 28L, are all terms that are used to input data into a FMC and should be familiar to all pilots flying modern automated aircraft regardless of whether they are native English speakers or not?
I don't think he was joking, and maybe he has a point. Claiming that they should is not always very pragmatic. Better discuss all possible approaches to prevent accidents.
Last edited by deptrai; 9th Jul 2013 at 08:37.
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Auto Throttle Resistance
Just a thought but I too experienced a lack of thrust in the sim on my 777 type rating due to my hand preventing auto throttle movement. I had come from the 737 and noted at the time that the resistance required to prevent AT movement was far less than on the 737. I have never flown the 747 so cannot comment on this type. I wonder if 744's have the same "resistance" as 748's for example?
This occurrence would never prevent the ability to resolve the issue with an adequate scan/FMA awareness etc but it may cause the onset.
This occurrence would never prevent the ability to resolve the issue with an adequate scan/FMA awareness etc but it may cause the onset.
Nitpicker330
It would not surprise me in the slightest if that was the case. Even more so if the trainee was older than the training captain.
Let me see......the Training Captain watches as the trainee lets the IAS drop below VRef by a LOT with the Thrust Levers at Idle approaching the sea wall..............AND YOU THINK HE SAID NOTHING BECAUSE THE TRAINEE WAS SENIOR TO HIM.............
All these people sproking automation as the saving grace, just remember there is only so much a computer can do!
If everything was automated, what would happen to aircraft still in the air around KSFO after this crash?
Do you close an airport on CAVOK day because you don't have ILS?
How do automated systems handle flameouts/engine failures/FOD blown tires ETC....
Fair enough SOMETIMES pilots make mistakes, but I don't think we are any safer relying in automation.
It all comes down to AVIATE, NAVIAGATE, COMMUNICATE.
While this accident appears to be a result of human error, lets also remember the crews of US1549 and QF32 in which ALL PASSENGERS were saved as the result of crews doing what they are trained to do!
If everything was automated, what would happen to aircraft still in the air around KSFO after this crash?
Do you close an airport on CAVOK day because you don't have ILS?
How do automated systems handle flameouts/engine failures/FOD blown tires ETC....
Fair enough SOMETIMES pilots make mistakes, but I don't think we are any safer relying in automation.
It all comes down to AVIATE, NAVIAGATE, COMMUNICATE.
While this accident appears to be a result of human error, lets also remember the crews of US1549 and QF32 in which ALL PASSENGERS were saved as the result of crews doing what they are trained to do!
I'm a firm believer in keeping up the hand flying skills. I don't want to end up like the Air France A330 or the 737 trying to realign it's IRS and ending up in the ocean.
Over automation is dumbing us down and at the end of the day all of us could end up hand flying on a ****ty night due a technical let alone flying a basic visual approach on CAVOK day! Automation is helpful agreed but not at the expense of maintaining basic flying skills.
The day aeroplanes become pilotless is the day I take the boat. Most modern jets can't even maintain a vertical path in descent without pilot intervention in dynamic atmospheric conditions (intermittent over and under speeds typical on 737 and A320). Do you think a computer will do better? What about slowing up during turbulence? Can the computer see a turbulent looking cloud ahead and put the seat belt sign on and as a precaution slow up instead of plowing into it at M.80?
This accident has in no way made pilotless air transport any closer! Thats just rubbish.
Last edited by Homebrew1; 9th Jul 2013 at 08:53. Reason: addition of info
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Asian Culture
This was an American made aircraft with American conceived automatics flying into an American airport following an American designed stepped procedure. The approach was being flown the American way (visually) under the direction of an American air traffic controller. Most likely the crew were trained by an American FTO to SOPs and an AFM influenced by American carriers.
Of course (as some posts would have) the only factor to be considered in this crash is Asian deference culture
However... assuming the PM wasn't looking inside at the airspeed he must have seen four whites turn to four reds in a matter of seconds on short final and still very calmly read back "Clear to land" without a quiver in his voice. This is the bit I really can't understand!
Of course (as some posts would have) the only factor to be considered in this crash is Asian deference culture
However... assuming the PM wasn't looking inside at the airspeed he must have seen four whites turn to four reds in a matter of seconds on short final and still very calmly read back "Clear to land" without a quiver in his voice. This is the bit I really can't understand!
No it all works just fine how it is.
There is no suggestion that the crew couldn't understand the charts, indeed the NTSB have said the crew had the correct charts on display in the cockpit.
There is no suggestion that the crew couldn't understand the charts, indeed the NTSB have said the crew had the correct charts on display in the cockpit.
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Well said. Automation is supposed to aid the human beings to manage the situations safely. If the crew or managements think that automation is the ultimate solution for safety in airline business as compared to improved fundamental and basic skill flying training then we will continue to have accidents. When MBAs dictate terms for training syllabus ignoring morally correct professional pilots, all that happens is short time gains for the company, fat pay checks for the MBAs and long lasting pain, agony and loss for the crew and passengers. I do not see things improving in the near future.
Im amazed this thread is as long as it is. In the main its full of Ill informed opinion that borders on BS, scattered with constant reposts of video and weather information. On one page we even had the flight track information posted by three separate posters. Its obvious many are to busy with there FSX investigations to bother reading the thread before launching there next great theory.
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DoYouFly,
It is just as cartoonish as CNN's version. It bears absolutely no resemblance to any of the facts we know, or to the real-life video. To name just a few points: It comes in at a low pitch angle, it does not raise a wing as high as is clearly seen, it rotates the wrong way, ...
Yes, X-Plane can be a useful tool for making such visualisations, I have done this professionally before, but only if you use DFDR data for position, speed and attitude, none of which are yet publicly available.
Relying on X-plane's physics engine can only yield something useful if you know exact control inputs (rather: control surface deflections in any FBW aircraft) and the model has been validated to reflect the actual aircraft performance, even in these extreme attitudes. Hint: not even commercial full-motion simulators can do this, as no aircraft is aerodynamically tested in a cartwheel motion, except perhaps aerobatics types).
Nice to look at (or not) but bears no relation to actual events.
Here is an X-Plane version o the crash. X-Plane simulates physics, true flight dynamics and flight characteristics. See what you think, compared to the cartoon CNN has been using.
Yes, X-Plane can be a useful tool for making such visualisations, I have done this professionally before, but only if you use DFDR data for position, speed and attitude, none of which are yet publicly available.
Relying on X-plane's physics engine can only yield something useful if you know exact control inputs (rather: control surface deflections in any FBW aircraft) and the model has been validated to reflect the actual aircraft performance, even in these extreme attitudes. Hint: not even commercial full-motion simulators can do this, as no aircraft is aerodynamically tested in a cartwheel motion, except perhaps aerobatics types).
Nice to look at (or not) but bears no relation to actual events.
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Aviation English is a combination of shortcuts, abbreviations and numeric constructions. Much of this would remain the same, even if translated into a pilot's native language, especially the Indo-European languages. The use of plain English would complicate, rather than simplify things.
The unfortunate flight crew of Asiana 214 will be interviewed in Korean and their replies translated by a competant linguist. This is because although international pilots are expected to have a certain standard of spoken English, it is unlikely to be good enough to answer a question like "How would you describe the atmosphere on the FD during the descent phase or approach briefing", unless the interviewee was a fluent English speaker.
The unfortunate flight crew of Asiana 214 will be interviewed in Korean and their replies translated by a competant linguist. This is because although international pilots are expected to have a certain standard of spoken English, it is unlikely to be good enough to answer a question like "How would you describe the atmosphere on the FD during the descent phase or approach briefing", unless the interviewee was a fluent English speaker.
Nitpicker, of course I know additional FD crew will come to the cabin and assist- AFTER duties in cockpit are complete. My point was, according to reports the purser has mentioned one pilot seated in the cabin. Everyone's been asking if only 2 were in the cockpit. Sure it could have been one of the operating crew helping at R1 but just as if not more likely to be the one seated in the cabin since presumably they'd get there before anyone in the flight deck... time will tell.
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The airline has informed the media that the LTC in the right hand seat was new to the position; it was his first flight as a LTC. The guy in the left had 43 hours on type.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 9th Jul 2013 at 09:48.
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Its starting to become clearer, I hope the guy in the right was not sitting hoping they would make it without having to say something to his senior but junior cpt .
Last edited by Toruk Macto; 9th Jul 2013 at 09:53.
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I may have missed it but do you know for sure they were hand flying?
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framer says:
...ensure that pilots can actually fly 100% manually, and have no aversion in disconnecting A/P & A/T at any time to maintain desired flight path profile. 
"So what do we need to change about the environment they were operating in? If you can answer that question you actually make an impact on flight safety rather than just on your own ego."