Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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A source of angst for the later arivee.
Maybe it`s time to have the wheelie bags consigned to the hold .....
The blockage on a shute more level than was originally designed would be
Maybe it`s time to have the wheelie bags consigned to the hold .....
The blockage on a shute more level than was originally designed would be
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I'm surprised no one has commented on what a narrow escape this event had.
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Originally Posted by Mimpe
I've never felt comfortable with Prof Reason's "swiss cheese safety" description. It implies that environments such as aviation and medical care are naturally benign, with multiple protections in place, all functioning to optimum. Sounds nice on paper.
That's the whole reason he used *swiss* cheese, as opposed to cheddar because *swiss* cheese has many large holes in it. You see; those holes in the slices of cheese are metaphors for defects, flaws, sub-optimalities, to use your parlance, in the safeguards.
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Originally Posted by green granite
I meant to add "the only one I can find is:" But I got interrupted halfway through the post and forgot to add it.
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Is there an audio clip of NORCAL issuing 214 the visual approach clx?
Would be curious to know how far a final he was given, whether or not he was instructed to follow anyone and any speed restrictions that may have been issued by ATC.
Would be curious to know how far a final he was given, whether or not he was instructed to follow anyone and any speed restrictions that may have been issued by ATC.
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Both the PAPI for 28L and 28R were up to the moment of the crash.
1.
2. They were already displaced 300ft down the runway and thus matching the new 300ft displaced threshold.
3. Following the crash, 3 out of 4 lights of the 28L papi system were smashed as a result of the aircraft sliding over them.
4. The 28R PAPI system is still functioning.
Two pictures to show you the knocked over PAPI lights on 28L. (Look closely)
1. Look at the left. You can see 4 concrete bases. The one all the way to the left still has a standing PAPI light, the three on the right dont.
2. Look at the top of the picture. You will see the same as above.
So functioning PAPI lights, no ILS GS for either 28L/28R as per NOTAM.
Crew knew this from the very moment they left in Seoul, and had plenty of time to brief the approach.
Regardless of how they were vectored for the visual, they could always have gone around and requested a extended downwind leg on the next try. (big loss of face for a Korean crew no doubt).
These guys managed to pull off a KAL801 in Guam, during a perfect CAVOK day at SFO in a B772.
Funny how quickly people forget what was going on with the hometown rivals of Asiana....Have some things improved since then? no doubt. Is the same culture still prevalent from the top of management to the very bottom? Absolutely.
Best thing to come out of this, is that these two will never be left at the controls of a commercial aircraft again.
1.
NOTAM SFO 07/046
!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
3. Following the crash, 3 out of 4 lights of the 28L papi system were smashed as a result of the aircraft sliding over them.
4. The 28R PAPI system is still functioning.
Two pictures to show you the knocked over PAPI lights on 28L. (Look closely)
1. Look at the left. You can see 4 concrete bases. The one all the way to the left still has a standing PAPI light, the three on the right dont.
2. Look at the top of the picture. You will see the same as above.
So functioning PAPI lights, no ILS GS for either 28L/28R as per NOTAM.
Crew knew this from the very moment they left in Seoul, and had plenty of time to brief the approach.
Regardless of how they were vectored for the visual, they could always have gone around and requested a extended downwind leg on the next try. (big loss of face for a Korean crew no doubt).
These guys managed to pull off a KAL801 in Guam, during a perfect CAVOK day at SFO in a B772.
Funny how quickly people forget what was going on with the hometown rivals of Asiana....Have some things improved since then? no doubt. Is the same culture still prevalent from the top of management to the very bottom? Absolutely.
Best thing to come out of this, is that these two will never be left at the controls of a commercial aircraft again.
Last edited by B-HKD; 7th Jul 2013 at 18:24.
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Originally Posted by Navcant
Would be curious to know how far a final he was given, whether or not he was instructed to follow anyone and any speed restrictions that may have been issued by ATC.
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Given that this particular A/C was successfully evacuated despite people taking their luggage with them, maybe a separate thread on evacuations and luggage would be helpful?
Clearly simply wiring the locks to the seatbelt signs won't work. The general point is that if people can't access the overhead bins in an evac, and if they know this from the safety brief then perhaps they will concentrate on getting from seat to slide as quickly as possible without wasting precious seconds rescuing of their ipad and duty free.
No more from me, and thoughts with those who were unable to walk away from this.
Clearly simply wiring the locks to the seatbelt signs won't work. The general point is that if people can't access the overhead bins in an evac, and if they know this from the safety brief then perhaps they will concentrate on getting from seat to slide as quickly as possible without wasting precious seconds rescuing of their ipad and duty free.
No more from me, and thoughts with those who were unable to walk away from this.
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B-HKD,
Good eye on the picture. Pretty clear that the airplane did take out the PAPI. Although it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that they were operational at the time, just that they had been installed.
Good eye on the picture. Pretty clear that the airplane did take out the PAPI. Although it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that they were operational at the time, just that they had been installed.
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Visual Approaches
If you as professional pilot can not perform a visual approach without the aid of a loc/GS it might be time to reconsider what you do for a living. (This is aimed at the people that think visual approaches are dangerous. I make no judgement on the Asiana incident yet).
Here is how to do a visual approach:
1. Find the runway
2. Find a bug on your windshield
3. Put the bug where you want to touch down on the runway.
4. If the bug ends up short of your touchdown point pull up a little (or use trim).
5. If the bug goes past your desired touch down point push a little. (or use trim).
6. Add or remove power as required to maintain whatever speed you have decided to use.
That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Here is how to do a visual approach:
1. Find the runway
2. Find a bug on your windshield
3. Put the bug where you want to touch down on the runway.
4. If the bug ends up short of your touchdown point pull up a little (or use trim).
5. If the bug goes past your desired touch down point push a little. (or use trim).
6. Add or remove power as required to maintain whatever speed you have decided to use.
That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.
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B-HKD
I suggest you read many of the previous posts re the BA 777 crash at LHR. If you have previous flying experience of arriving at a major International airport, expecting all landing aids to be normal, then your comments are worth considering. I think your age is against you for that to be possible. A case as we say in the UK " fools rush in .....".
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B-HKD,
Good eye on the picture. Pretty clear that the airplane did take out the PAPI. Although it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that they were operational at the time, just that they had been installed.
Good eye on the picture. Pretty clear that the airplane did take out the PAPI. Although it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that they were operational at the time, just that they had been installed.
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier in the thread ( I haven't the time to read all 27 pages tonight) but it strikes me as similar to the other 777 hull loss with BA in that they landed short. Were the cruise ambient temperatures conducive to fuel icing?
The OZ -200ER involved has PW4090 engines.
The Heat exchanger clogging up due to icing was a problem limited to the Trent engines. GE/PW looked into the design of their heat exchangers and confirmed it was a problem limited to RR
Last edited by B-HKD; 7th Jul 2013 at 18:49.
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Dont think these have been posted before in the thread. Here are some relevant NOTAMS for SFO:
SFO 06/011 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R IM OTS TIL 1308222359
SFO 06/010 SFO NAV LDA RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/009 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R CAT 2/3 NA WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/008 SFO RWY 28R RVRT OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/005 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/004 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/003 SFO RWY 28R ALS OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/011 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R IM OTS TIL 1308222359
SFO 06/010 SFO NAV LDA RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/009 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R CAT 2/3 NA WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/008 SFO RWY 28R RVRT OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/005 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/004 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/003 SFO RWY 28R ALS OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
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If there were no engine or flight control malfunctions plowing an airline short of the runway, that has a double displaced threshold, is inexcusable, especially on a CAFB day.
No ILS? Laughable, and sad, to think that professional pilots need one to land.
No VASI/PAPI? Makes it tougher but not impossible or unusable.
Many ways to use the FMC to figure out distance to the runway. That should be known before you are signed off by the TRI/TRE/CKA.
Blind adherence to SOP's can be a contributing factor. Watch JFK VOR 13L on a VFR day. It's amusing and disturbing watching guys make a simple approach a CF.
No ILS? Laughable, and sad, to think that professional pilots need one to land.
No VASI/PAPI? Makes it tougher but not impossible or unusable.
Many ways to use the FMC to figure out distance to the runway. That should be known before you are signed off by the TRI/TRE/CKA.
Blind adherence to SOP's can be a contributing factor. Watch JFK VOR 13L on a VFR day. It's amusing and disturbing watching guys make a simple approach a CF.
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4 Pilots in Cockpit
Several posters have mentioned that the flight had 4 crewmembers in the cockpit.
Having deadheaded many times on ASIANA on my way to teach on the A330 in Korea, I am pretty sure that the back-up crew does not sit in the cockpit for landing and take off.
Having deadheaded many times on ASIANA on my way to teach on the A330 in Korea, I am pretty sure that the back-up crew does not sit in the cockpit for landing and take off.
There are several posts throughout this thread from pilots who have operated into SFO recently and all of them have stated that the PAPIs have been out of service on 28L and 28R for some time now.
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If there were no engine or flight control malfunctions plowing an airline short of the runway, that has a double displaced threshold, is inexcusable, especially on a CAFB day.
No ILS? Laughable, and sad, to think that professional pilots need one to land.
No VASI/PAPI? Makes it tougher but not impossible or unusable.
Many ways to use the FMC to figure out distance to the runway. That should be known before you are signed off by the TRI/TRE/CKA.
Blind adherence to SOP's can be a contributing factor. Watch JFK VOR 13L on a VFR day. It's amusing and disturbing watching guys make a simple approach a CF.
No ILS? Laughable, and sad, to think that professional pilots need one to land.
No VASI/PAPI? Makes it tougher but not impossible or unusable.
Many ways to use the FMC to figure out distance to the runway. That should be known before you are signed off by the TRI/TRE/CKA.
Blind adherence to SOP's can be a contributing factor. Watch JFK VOR 13L on a VFR day. It's amusing and disturbing watching guys make a simple approach a CF.
Worse even... the guys knew their beloved ILS GS would be INOP for both 28L/R from the very moment they received the dispatch brief/release to KSFO.
10+ hours to prep for a visual on a CAVOK day, and they manage to land hundreds of feet short
As usual.. INOP ILS = CFIT for the Korean
Last edited by B-HKD; 7th Jul 2013 at 18:58.
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Capt. On Heat
Fine name major European airport TMAs that are NOT IFR at all times
Quote:
Remember USA is one of the very few countries in the world whereVFR approaches by commercial passenger carrying aircraft are legal.
Ian. Rubbish.
Remember USA is one of the very few countries in the world whereVFR approaches by commercial passenger carrying aircraft are legal.
Ian. Rubbish.