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Yemenia A-310 accident 2009 report

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Yemenia A-310 accident 2009 report

Old 5th Jul 2013, 01:48
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Think about it logically for a second. The AF447 scenario - being at night over the middle of the ocean - offers a complete lack of external visual reference points. A visual representation of an aircraft pitching and rolling in what would effectively appear as a black void would be of dubious analytical value, would it not?
And now if you take a minute to logically think about it, will you get it ... ?
You're a joke dozy.
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Old 5th Jul 2013, 08:53
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"It was all a mess but descending to circa 400' while not even halfway down the downwind leg shows clearly that neither pilot had a clear picture in their mind. The simulation was just staggering to watch. "

Actually, they descended to just above 200 feet because, although not shown on the PFD, the flight director was on (FD1), and vertical mode was V/S -500 on the FMA. V/S mode happened after the ALT selector was placed to 3000 feet. The autopilot had kicked off for some reason, and the PF was distracted by the pitch command bar commanding a V/S of -500 FPM. It is evident that neither was really aware of the pitch of the aircraft, and was simply following at least the pitch FD bar. A principle that should be universal is that: if you don't intend to follow the flight director, switch it off!


Fatigue may have led to confusion over complex flight management systems. However, there doesn't seem to be the standard callouts of FMA changes, so situational awareness was probably lacking and cross-checking would not be evident by the PNF. No callouts and acknowledgements indicate lack of standards by the airline.
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Old 5th Jul 2013, 11:53
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Originally Posted by Jazz Hands
Wasn't the A310 similarly pitching and rolling over the ocean in the dark with few visual references? The animation is only set in daylight to aid the viewing.
Firstly, this was an accident that occurred during approach phase, thus even if the animation wasn't using day-for-night, there would be external references (runway lights etc.).

Secondly, you've got to be careful with these animations, especially when dealing with a non-technical audience (such as a jury). The reason for this is that the animation could mislead such an audience into thinking conditions were more (or indeed less) favourable than they actually were. How many people, for example, will see that animation without reading the article and assume the crash happened in daylight? I recall an early animation where the animators involved used a little artistic licence to place a visible bolt of lightning at the same time lightning was mentioned on the CVR, and this jeopardised the case because neither the type nor location of the lightning were ever determined.

All the 3D forensic animations of aviation accidents and incidents I've ever seen have tended to be during departure and climb or approach and landing phases, presumably because there are sufficient visual references to aid understanding during these phases. I don't think I've ever seen one (as in a 3D representation) for a cruise-phase accident over water. There's a mockup of EgyptAir990 doing the rounds on YouTube, but it looks to me like a third party put it together.

Finally, the animation linked above appears to be made using off-the-shelf software (Flight data visualization & animation software: CEFA FAS) which is intended for FOQA and pilot training purposes, but even CEFA themselves don't advertise it as suitable for official forensic analysis. Truth be told, even with the lo-res FDR graph images in the AF447 report, with sufficient time someone could transcribe the plotted values and run it through CEFA, but it wouldn't tell us anything we don't already know.

Anyways, this thread is not about AF447, there's several that are and this discussion really belongs there.

EDIT: Hope he doesn't mind, but here's another take on the subject (from the Asiana/SFO thread):
Originally Posted by PJ2
I do flight data analysis and know that images and videos created from "data" have both the power to easily convince a credulous and information-seeking audience but can also be significantly in error and can draw parties to incorrect conclusions.

Last edited by DozyWannabe; 8th Jul 2013 at 02:46.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 03:39
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Originally Posted by dozy
Firstly, this was an accident that occurred during approach phase, thus even if the animation wasn't using day-for-night, there would be external references (runway lights etc.).
What's your experience again in night flying ?

I don't think I've ever seen one (as in a 3D representation) for a cruise-phase accident over water.
It's not like you had never seen that one ...
REAL Pitch Up Boeing 777 Incident - YouTube

Finally, the animation linked above appears to be made using off-the-shelf software (Flight data visualization & animation software: CEFA FAS) which is intended for FOQA and pilot training purposes, but even CEFA themselves don't advertise it as suitable for official forensic analysis.
To the contrary such tool is also designed for aircraft incidents and accident investigations.

Originally Posted by CEFA
In just a few clicks of a mouse, it takes flight data and turns it into meaningful information that everyone can easily understand and use. CEFA FAS instantly shows each moment in an aircraft’s flight, and thus provides a clear, precise image of the complex chain of events that occur during an incident or an accident – without compromise, assumption or any imagined interpretation.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 07:11
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Quote:

"I love it when the old guys come here with their: In my days we were all competent, blablabla.
The barriers built into todays cockpits, GPWS and EGPWS are there because you old guys kept flying into mountains and other obstacles. They are there because you messed up again and again, despite your superior flying skills and situational awareness."


I am not worried about the inexperience of younger colleagues. What really worries me is that, despite their superior knowledge of SOP's, Part 8, and being good in assertiveness, they do not understand their lack of experience.
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Old 29th Jan 2014, 20:45
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BBC News - France charges Yemenia Airways over deadly 2009 crash

France has charged Yemenia Airways with manslaughter over a 2009 crash off the Comoros Islands that killed 152 people, judicial sources say.
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Old 29th Jan 2014, 21:09
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So what are the consequences of this action in 2014

Will anything new happen?
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Old 29th Jan 2014, 22:49
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That made me sick.
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Old 30th Jan 2014, 05:04
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Is this some kind of a bad joke or dark humour...?
Im speechless...
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Old 30th Jan 2014, 05:31
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This is not to exonerate Yemenia but charging them for murder.pleeeeease! Accidents happen..some explicable and others...to this day remain a mystery.They can start with murder charges on AF447 as they demonstrated incompetence in BASIC flying techniques and CRM was apparently incapacitated.Captain was not in his station and when he did arrive he could not uncrap the from the fan! May be they should have Captains as cruise commanders instead! Anyone wh has flown into Comoros at night in inclement weather with all that adjacent terrain will attest its not an easy feat..even in an Airbus.That said, notwithstanding, there should have been more vigilance from PM and standard call outs for deviations. Circle to land is a dangerous maneuvre in inmclement weather with limited visibility that is why many airlines are moving away from this IAP in their jet fleet.It is a procedure which should carry a high expectancy of a Go Around and no re attempts but prompt diversion to the Alternate once missed to minimise chances of impact (on terra firma or salt juice). Yemenia's fuel reserve policy might need further examination..especially on such a long flight to an Oceanic island.Did the crew have enough island holding fuel or was it an enforced "go-home-itis?
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 19:31
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I was not able to read the report and did not want to read a rough translation, but my two cents worth from the armchair:

The crew seemed "concerned" about something from the outset. They kept banging on about the runway beacon, the lights being turned up and more importantly the wind speed and direction. It seemed to me that perhaps they did not want to do a circle, and by requesting the wind several times maybe hoped that it might not be necessary. The possibility that they confused 20 and 02 can also be thrown into the mix. Something did not add up is the feeling that I got when reading between the ATC lines, and well before the staggering outcome that eventually came to be seen.

IMHO these guys were confused even before they passed the IAF, and from there on made it up as they went along, without perhaps even a cursory briefing.

I do however have one question to ask of those who fly THIS TYPE. I know nought about FBW, but have heard much about the "protection" that such aircraft can offer. Why were the crew not protected from simply stalling a perfectly serviceable airplane into the ocean?

If you fly the PRECISE type I would love to be educated.
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 19:41
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There are no FBW type protections on this aircraft, it was an A310. Any type of aircraft can be flown into the sea .
The crew were confused and seem to be focussed on landing off an ILS for the northerly runway. There seems to have been confusion from the IF onwards based upon their selections on the FCU. They seem to totally lose their situational awareness once they break off for the circle. They would probably have all been alive today if they had gone manual and either maintained level flight or climbed to msa without a config change.
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 20:48
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@Trackdiamond:
  1. Corporate Manslaughter is not the same thing as murder
  2. The AF447 airframe was completely airworthy
  3. It would appear the Yemenia airframe was not, and had been written up beforehand
  4. The charge seems to have been brought because despite repeated warnings, the airline continued to operate aircraft that were not fit for purpose

It's also worth noting that just because the charges have been brought, it doesn't necessarily mean anything will come of them.

Corporate manslaughter is an action brought against the airline - it's not the same thing as trying to prosecute the crew in absentia.

Last edited by DozyWannabe; 31st Jan 2014 at 22:02.
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 22:00
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A310 is not fit for night circling?
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 22:04
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Originally Posted by flyboyike
A310 is not fit for night circling?
You know it is. I suspect that the charge has been brought on the basis of evidence indicating that the airline dropped the ball in more ways than properly maintaining their fleet.
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 22:06
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So, what purpose were they not fit for?
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Old 31st Jan 2014, 22:23
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I don't know the specifics - according to the article:

Originally Posted by BBC
The plane was banned from French airspace after inspectors found numerous faults in 2007, according to the then transport minister, Dominique Bussereau.

Several European countries had also found a number of problems when they inspected Yemenia aircraft prior to the crash.
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Old 1st Feb 2014, 16:37
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I don't know how French law views the issue of causality, but it appears there was nothing wrong with the aircraft in this case, thus any maintenance issues Yemenia had (real or imagined) would not be relevant.
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Old 1st Feb 2014, 18:10
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manslaughter charges

Thanks for the added clarity Dozywannabe
English isn't my first language and yes I too used a hard word like murder..as watching western homicide movies the term"manslaughter" amounts to "murder" even if involuntary..but I think usage of that term in an Aviation accident does not settle well in my conscience.Negligence would have been more apt perhaps? Yemenia, I concur needs to step up their game seriously and review their recruitment and crew induction methods additional to improving their English language standards in flying operations. The should strive transparently to improve their safety culture.

I nearly flew for this airline in 1993.Nepotism plays an important role in its recruitment.I met a guy during my CPL training who couldnt speak an English sentence beyond 2 words and somehow got the license..and next time a see him in 1993 jockeying their 727s..and still dumbfounded in English..how does a chap like that read..let alone understand the AFM and SOPs.how does he communicate with ATC in the international flights that he operates? The English language deficiency as well as general communication shortcomings was common at all levels in the airline from Admin to Engineering and Operations.A lot has improved nowdays thanks to digital generation folks and internet.I am concerned that yemen indulges in the local fresh produce (herb) called "khat" and even its crews use it to stay awake for night flights I hear.That herb has a way of distorting the mental faculties.I wonder if Forensics discovered its contents in the crews bloodstream.It might have played a role to explain the mental abherations obsered in the flight crew's performance that night.

Last edited by Trackdiamond; 3rd Feb 2014 at 03:03. Reason: title
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Old 1st Feb 2014, 22:07
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Yemenia / French Judicial Enquiry

As usual, when the French judicial process is evoked in the aftermath of an aviation-related accident/incident, there are a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions… In this particular case relating to the 2009 Yemenia crash, you may want to take into consideration the following elements:

1/ The French BEA is only a “third party” in this investigation that concerns the crash of a Yemeni plane in the Comoro Islands.


2/ The French justice is also deemed to be competent, according to international legal standards, because many crash victims were French residents.

3/ The –very- slow progress of the Yemeni enquiry has been a frustration for the victims’ relatives, the French justice and the BEA, whose repeated offers to help were turned down. The BEA and the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs have publicly expressed their dissatisfaction since 2011, talking openly about “a distinct lack of cooperation” from the Comorian authorities.

4/ The French legal system operates in a very different way than its Anglo-Saxon counterparts: Any work-related accident/incident that causes death or serious bodily harm will automatically trigger a judicial enquiry, which needs to be motivated.

5/ In this particular case, the judicial enquiry is motivated on the grounds of “Homicide Involontaire” (“Involuntary –accidental- manslaughter”), a legal notion quite distinct from the Anglo-Saxon “manslaughter”, under its various acceptations (Premeditated, voluntary and accidental”). Quite logically, a similar enquiry is on-going in the case of AF 447, which a member evoked earlier on this thread.

6/ An enquiry for “homicide involontaire” can be brought against an individual (a drunk driver, responsible for a deadly accident, for example) or a corporate entity when the later entity could be entirely or in part responsible for a given accident. In this particular case, the French authorities will focus on areas of potential negligence from Yemenia, be it the training of their pilots, their qualifications or the quality of Yemenia’s maintenance programme.

7/ The “mise en examen” (“criminal indictement”) of Yemenia –and NOT the Captain or the FO- is the logical next step. It’s a legal technicality that gives all parties access to the various components of the French enquiry: The BEA conclusions, the conclusions of the police enquiry, the SAFA reports relating to Yemania and the third party reports that may have been commissioned, as well as any “amici curiae” communications that it deems to be relevant.

Nothing could be further from the truth than describing the course of French justice as an attempt to “criminalise” the actions of the crew. Similarly, the French Justice or the BEA cannot be held responsible for the delay in the production of the Comorian report. It’s fair to say that they have brought as much pressure to bear on the Comorian authorities as diplomatically possible.

I hope this has somewhat clarified the situation,

Last edited by Agnostique75; 1st Feb 2014 at 22:27.
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