MSR985 escorted into PIK

[BOAC]

It is worth remembering that the time the message was found and the time ATC were advised may well be separated by a significant time. It may well have been 'over the Czech republic' at the time, but who knows what conversations may have been held with company and cockpit decisions made?

[fireflybob]

So reports say five people have applied for asylum but has anyone been charged so far?

I am somewhat askance as to what some posters have said about their actions if they discovered a note in flight. Surely all threats should be taken seriously. That does not necessarily mean that it would constitute a red alert requiring the aircraft to land but surely such a note should be reported to the relevant authorities and kept as evidence.

Often terrorist groups will do a trial run to see whether any action is taken so they can use a later opportunity in similar circumstances.

[YRP]

mixture wrote:

Oh... and just before you don your tin foil hat maxred, don't forget.....

The note was discovered by a BBC Journalist.

Tin foil hats? When will people ever learn...

http://jma.tamu.edu/Classes/MethodsI...Experiment.pdf

I also second the opinion that 10W has provided very useful information in a suitably calm manner. While not having bothered to dig it out myself, the Flight Aware track is very useful in picturing the situation.

[10W]

BOAC

You make a fair point. I guess the Scottish Police will have that information, gleaned from their interviews with all on board.

[uffington sb]

Fireflybob.

Any threat would initiate a Red Alert and subsequent interception etc.
Do you really think that say, a person would go to all the trouble of obtaining the materials, constructing a device, being careful not to leave any evidence, DNA, credit card details of course. Smuggle it onto an aircraft, then scrawl a message in an in- flight magazine that may or may not be read on that particular page, claiming there's a device on board.
There's probably loads of such messages flying around in magazines at this very moment, and if I found one, I'd destroy it ( and not by setting fire to it).

[willl05]

If really considerable time elapsed ...

... after the captain was made aware of the note and before the diversion, I do not understand the decision-making process.

Either the note is taken seriously, then land at the nearest suitable airport. Why wait for a fire alarm? Or wait for people on the ground, whose lives are not at stake, to make the decision? It might be too late then.

Or the note is not taken seriously, then just go on to your destination.

What is the logic here? "Oh, we have been flying for a while since we saw that note and there is no fire, now let's divert."

[JW411]

I would like to congratulate 10W for his infinite patience in trying to explain to the great unwashed and some others that I had previously considered to be professional as to why the Nat Tracks were so far north that day.

Those who have no Atlantic experience should think twice about commenting.

I always made a point of explaining to the punters in the back exactly why we were over the Ice Cap on the way from London to Los Angeles (or New York if the winds were really bad).

P.S. Does anyone else remember the weather ships?

[lomapaseo]

after the captain was made aware of the note and before the diversion, I do not understand the decision-making process.

Either the note is taken seriously, then land at the nearest suitable airport. Why wait for a fire alarm? Or wait for people on the ground, whose lives are not at stake, to make the decision? It might be too late then.

Or the note is not taken seriously, then just go on to your destination.

What is the logic here? "Oh, we have been flying for a while since we saw that note and there is no fire, now let's divert."

I don't believe this is covered in the SOPs

Decision making when your aircraft is running at near perfection is not made on the spur of the moment.

Information must be collected and weighed against what ifs.

Folks who don't have to make this kind of decision never seem to grasp this.

[parabellum]

Whether it came into the crews decision making process or not I don't know, but the aircraft diverted at almost the last opportunity it had of making a safe emergency descent and landing before heading out over the Atlantic where options are minimal.

[wiggy]

Decision making when your aircraft is running at near perfection is not made on the spur of the moment.

Information must be collected and weighed against what ifs.

Folks who don't have to make this kind of decision never seem to grasp this.

+1 from me,


Have the Monday morning quarterbacks considered that multiple individuals may have weighed the information and come to an agreement as to the least risky course of action and then made a rational and considered decision to divert to Prestwick?

This thread is an example of Pprune at it's worse, we don't have access to all the information that was available to the crew or the authorities and we never will, so speculation is simply pointless and criticism of the crew's course of action is ill judged.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by parabellum

.....the aircraft diverted at almost the last opportunity it had of making a safe emergency descent and landing before heading out over the Atlantic where options are minimal.

Oh come on. On the track they were taking they were passing within close range of Bergen, Keflavik, Goose Bay - there's only a small piece of even ETOPS 60 minutes needed on this route.

[Eric T Cartman]

Spot on Wiggy - well said !

[mixture]

This thread is an example of PPRuNe at it's worse, we don't have access to all the information

Actually, on the positive side, at least nobody posted the traditional irrelevant METAR and TAF output from the time of the incident.

[parabellum]

Oh come on. On the track they were taking they were passing
within close range of Bergen, Keflavik, Goose Bay - there's only a small piece
of even ETOPS 60 minutes needed on this route.

WHBM - I would remind you of the Swissair MD11 off the coast of Nova Scotia in 1998, Flight SR111 which is just one example that illustrates the point that when an aircraft is on fire you only have minutes to get down from altitude, configured and land before it is too late, to be successful you have to be within twenty or thirty miles, possibly fifty tops, of where you land. ETOPS of sixty minutes would be about fifty minutes too long.

Next time you are in the SIM ask the instructor to give you the exercise of a fire in the cabin at FL350.

[BOAC]

the exercise of a fire in the cabin at FL350

- worth pointing out that as far as we know there was no 'fire' and this was a decision taken at some point to exercise a precautionary diversion? Let's not over-dramatise the event.

[parabellum]

What are you talking about BOAC? There was a threat to set fire to the aircraft, where, when or how has not yet been determined, no question of over dramatization, I made the point that they diverted before heading out over the Atlantic where their options would be severely limited and WHBM scoffed at this, so I gave an example where 229 people died and illustrates the need to get down, configured and landed in very short order, somewhere close at hand. The simulator exercise, with smoke in the SIM, brings this home all too quickly, you should try it.

[BOAC]

What are you talking about BOAC?

- I am 'talking' about the fact that the 'threat' could well have been discovered many hours earlier than the diversion, and that most of us would not just throw the aircraft on the ground in haste at the 'nearest suitable' thinking of Swissair but would take the usual approach to such threats, which I'm sure you are aware of. Why was Prestwick selected, do you think and not Vienna/Frankfurt/Amsterdam/Hamburg/Copenhagen etc etc?? Why no evacuation? Do you know for sure it was an "emergency descent"?

There have been many such 'messages', from pranksters through to disgruntled c/crew, and I do not know of any that have been 'real' - though of course there may have been some. There are well-established procedures for handling such. Yes, it would probably been unwise to continue en-route, but that decision would have been taken in a measured way and not, I think, in a panic.

you should try it

- actually I have, several times.

[parabellum]

We are at cross purposes BOAC, you are talking about what actually happened and I am talking about valid reasons not to proceed over the Atlantic in the event that the threat to set fire to the aircraft was carried out, particularly I was rebutting WHBM's idea that it would be safe to continue regardless as, according to WHBM, the aircraft would be able to reach a safe landing even if on fire.

Never intended to suggest an emergency descent based on just the threat, never entered the speculation about where or when the threat was received.

that decision would have been taken in a measured way and not, I think, in a
panic.

Another area of speculation I never entered and I never mentioned 'panic' either, everything I said was related to the possibility of an actual cabin fire in progress, I repeat, nothing I wrote was intended to be comment on what actually happened, I simply pointed out that they had chosen to divert prior to heading out over the Atlantic where their options would have been greatly reduced.

[maxred]

Any update on this? It all went very quite, very quickly or perhaps I missed something.

Basically what happened to the plane, what happened to the alleged 5 asylum seekers, and did all end well?