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Runway overrun in thessaloniki

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Runway overrun in thessaloniki

Old 15th Jun 2013, 09:51
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Runway overrun in thessaloniki

Reports of an overrun.
Astra airlines. Flight originated in Novosibirsk.

Last edited by fox niner; 15th Jun 2013 at 09:55.
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 11:23
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Rumor has it that the aircraft involved was a 738 wet leased for Astra Airlines from AMC Airlines of Egypt.

Last edited by Tacitus; 15th Jun 2013 at 11:35.
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 11:58
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Did it go 'plouf'?
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 15:15
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Correct, 738 on wet lease from AMC Airlines, otherwise it would've been a little cramped in the BAe-146.


It didn't go "plouf".

Last edited by drdino; 15th Jun 2013 at 22:16.
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 23:04
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It was a Boeing 737-800NG from the Egyptian Airline AMC operating under Astra Airlines' routes, since their airplanes were rented for Astra continuously. The airplane got off the runway for unknown reasons till now. All 160 passengers and the Crew are safe and sound. The airplane was coming from Novosibirsk in Russia under Astra 921.

source: 11aviation.com

Astra Airlines made a public announcement and confirmed that the airplane was from another airline and that the airplane's maintanance is handled by the original airline that owns the aircraft.

Now, from my personal experience, the fact that the plane overran the runway is pretty bad, because, here in Thessaloniki Airport (LGTS) we have two runways but one of them is closed due to a current extension program. So, we have only one runway in use; one right above the sea and one which' end is about 280 meters away from a highway. I suppose that the airplane stopped from Runway 16 heading to Runway 34's start and thankfully It didn't go much further to the highway.
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 09:46
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Update

Here's an update about what happened.

The airplane made a quite fast approach (200kts) and it touched down quite late, right before the runways' crossing and he ended up spotting a bit away from the runway.

The METAR of that time:

150420Z 00000KT 9999 FEW030 SCT080 19/14 Q1013 NOSIG
150350Z 12004KT 9999 FEW030 17/14 Q1013 NOSIG

Number 1: Touch down.
Number 2: Full stop.



source: 11aviation.com
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 10:25
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But , the 800 does, the fastest v,ref in its class.
The -900 is.
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 15:14
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@panos + photo from 11aviation.com

this is LGTS RWY 10/28. but in the text is mentioned they landed on RWY 16. not properly investigated.

Last edited by Airbus_a321; 16th Jun 2013 at 15:15.
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 16:03
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It's the correct runway, the map just needs re-orientation.
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 16:03
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The pic posted by Panos does indeed show 16/34. The 16 threshold is on the left hand headland with the approach lights in the sea.

Not quite sure how you're aware that they approached at "200 knots" or the exact point of touchdown......unless you're on the investigation team with access to the FDR..... If they did touchdown where you indicate that leaves about 1400m at a guess - bit tight for a fast 738.....
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 19:53
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Perhaps we could join up this thread with the AF Memmingen lookalike incident and then try working out why modern jet transport aircraft seem to come to grief, due to far too many Nanojoules or Ergs or whatever energy units we're using this week, over the landing threshold and ending up in the overrun?

Just a thought as I recall from memory the many fatal and luckily non-fatal overrun accidents over the last few years, since we were forced into aiming 300m into the concrete and carrying oodles of speed JUST IN CASE the wind reversed on a perfectly ordinary day............................!

When landing a Bae146-300 into Berne, the touchdown point was the "piano-keys", unless you held membership of the golf course at the far end, and Vref meant just that, not Vref + a bit of this and a bit of that!!!

Back to that darkened room to read the latest EASA proposals, thereby guaranteeing coma within minutes!
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Old 16th Jun 2013, 20:26
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Avherald report on this incident.
Incident: AMC B738 at Thessaloniki on Jun 15th 2013, overran runway on landing
A 110 meter overrun is pretty awful.
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 01:58
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Runway overrun.

Determining the TD point is a very simple matter but the above graphic is indeed incorrect. The actual TD point was much further along with even less runway remaining.

Google Earth is detailed enough at that location to get very good ground references also visible in the video. You can clearly follow along as each reference landmark passes the camera and the jolt of touchdown is easily noted.

The above graphic has the TD point after approximately 1000m of runway was used up with about 1,400m remaining to stop.

The actual TD point, determined by video reference to overhead imagery...
was after about 1,470m with only 950m remaining.

You can clearly see the closed Taxiway (the above supposed TD point) go past in the video, followed by the RNY crossing itself The actual TD takes place beyond the RNY crossing point about the point abreast of some airport field equipment seen near the service road.

Hope that answers the question of HOW the touch down point can be determined even though the above graphic is incorrect.
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 08:34
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Interesting flap and canoe fairing angles in the video within the link two posts above this.

Rob
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 09:17
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Morning,

Question resulting from observation after watching the video (non pilot):

On this type/situation, would it be normal to lower the gear after setting a flap position other than up or before?

The reason for my question is that the flaps appeared to be stowed at the start of the vid, then from when they start moving, the runway is visible 29 seconds after, then touchdown at about 41 seconds...

How long does it take to get the gear down, locked and confirmed?

As pax, I have always noticed flaps being deployed before gear. (appearences only due to being in the back...) and in the vid it looks a tad... rushed

Last edited by R04stb33f; 19th Jun 2013 at 09:18.
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 09:26
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They all clap - don't you love it?

Anyone want to guess the flap setting? I'm pretty sure it deploys further during the landing roll too.
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 09:53
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When will these eeejits learn to go around at the first suspicion that all is not well ?.

It seems to me that there must be some serious questions about both training and culture.

Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 19th Jun 2013 at 09:55.
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 11:53
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Question resulting from observation after watching the video (non pilot):

On this type/situation, would it be normal to lower the gear after setting a flap position other than up or before?

The reason for my question is that the flaps appeared to be stowed at the start of the vid, then from when they start moving, the runway is visible 29 seconds after, then touchdown at about 41 seconds...

How long does it take to get the gear down, locked and confirmed?

As pax, I have always noticed flaps being deployed before gear. (appearences only due to being in the back...) and in the vid it looks a tad... rushed
  • Gear creates drag and drag requires power (fuel) to overcome,
  • Aeroplane wings are designed to be efficient at high speed.
  • The speed needed to fly with a clean (i.e. no flaps) wing is too high for landing.

So with those facts in mind wing high lift devices (flaps, slats, etc.) are used to allow the wing to generate sufficient lift at slower speeds.

The general procedure is to reduce speed at an appropriate distance from the runway extending flaps as required to facilitate that speed reduction. Gear is lowered, generally, at 1500' at the latest but often earlier. The final speed reduction and selection of landing flaps occurs shortly thereafter.

The last stages of flap create very high drag and are only used for landing. The aircraft I fly will give a warning if the last stages of flap are selected with the gear not down.

The large amount of drag created by landing flaps and gear down needs considerable power to overcome therefore gear and landing flaps are selected as late as is compatible with reducing speed and being in a stable approach configuration at a pre-determined height above the runway. Different airlines use different 'gates' but in my company the requirement is to be stable (there is a definition for stable) by 1,000'.

When I first joined my company we were shown an excellent video made by two trainers where they enacted a typical 'rushed approach'. It was very funny but an excellent teaching aid. The company had realised a long time ago how important it was to be stable on the approach to avoid just the very incident which started this thread.

There are many reasons to end up high and fast. Some can be caused by ATC restrictions or changes, some by pilot's lack of situational awareness. Whatever the reason jet aircraft take time and distance to slow down. The sin is not in ending up high and fast but pressing on despite the instability and not going around at a suitably early point.

The consequences in this case were mostly embarrassment and an airport closure but so often we see massive damage and loss of life which could so easily be avoided.

Last edited by M.Mouse; 19th Jun 2013 at 11:55.
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 12:36
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Perhaps they went to the Indonesian school of 737 flying. Flap 5 and Vref 220kts?
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Old 19th Jun 2013, 13:11
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The sin is not in ending up high and fast but pressing on despite the instability and not going around at a suitably early point.
Precisely.
Modern aircraft even have a TOGA button to make it easier. In my day we were always fully briefed and on a hair trigger for a go around. Actual go arounds were almost always wildlife related but that was Africa. The principle remains the same though, anything that can go wrong eventually will go wrong so best to be prepared and be abort minded rather than suffer the consequences of getthereitis.

Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 19th Jun 2013 at 13:14. Reason: Spelling
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