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Industrial action 11, 12, 13th June

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Industrial action 11, 12, 13th June

Old 12th Jun 2013, 12:04
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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ayroplain,

No.

In order to prevent the return of the Victorian mill houses, it is a vital right to be able to withdraw your labour.

People paid a high price to gain this right.

The only real credible exception are workers who protect the health or safety of others (eg doctors and police). ATCOs are simply causing commercial chaos, so no issue there.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 12:08
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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And that's precisely why they have been able, through abuse of their dominant position, to engineer a gilded lifestyle of exorbitant pay for very little work. No wonder they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the status quo - not just the French, see the latest ETF press release.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 12:13
  #43 (permalink)  

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Oh, please, comparing ACCs with Victorian mill houses. Go and insult somebody else's intelligence, don't pick on mine.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 12:31
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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ATCOs is not a vital job, it's important but it's not like doctors, police, fireman or search and rescue, it's only for the pleasure of people to fly on holiday or receive fresh fish everyday, it's just for the lazy community that we are becoming. Reading that us a vital service makes me laugh, it's true but makes no sense talking about no right of strike or any disruption, my father, my grandfather fighter a lot to gain that rights we are not given up because of commercial/pleasure reasons. I think thanks to this crisis young people understood the importance of fight for their rights and with the help of social media we can do it stronger.

SSK we can't compare but we can't bring back those days for ever reason, let's stop to cut cost at people expenses, why we had to save billions of money for the banks? Why we pay millions for politics that are overpaid and make only disasters? I can also suggest to jeopardize politics all over Europe and let's keep a performance of all the government and than decide to let Germany politics to govern all Europe, do you think politics will accept or they will strike against?

Last edited by spoon84; 12th Jun 2013 at 12:32.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 12:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, please, comparing ACCs with Victorian mill houses. Go and insult somebody else's intelligence, don't pick on mine.
As recently as two years ago, Spanish ATC staff were forced to sit in positions and work overtime practically at gunpoint. I don't think the Victorian millhouse metaphor is all that removed in that particular instance.

This thread suffers from two things; a distinct language barrier on part of the supporters of the industrial action, and staggering misinformation on part of its detractors. Like that gentleman earlier, attempting to liken the rationalization of the Euro airspace to the deregulation of the UK manufacturing industry..there is a misguided analogy if you want one. What the EC wants is rationalization, not liberalization, as many on here seem to freely conflate. I.e. to make the european ATC more like it is stateside, fewer and bigger ACC sectors with interoperable infrastructure, leading to straighter routings and less handovers, who could object to that. Unfortunately it is now becoming obvious that local mindset governments have been paying lip service to SES while at the same time protecting national interests which run contrary to the whole underlying idea. France has become the testing block and so far everything points the direction of business as usual. SES2+ we hardly knew ye, but already looking forward to the next iteration.

Last edited by W.R.A.I.T.H; 12th Jun 2013 at 12:56.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 12:57
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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In order to prevent the return of the Victorian mill houses, it is a vital right to be able to withdraw your labour.
Yup. Resign.

Stop thinking in the past. There is a big competitive job market out there. If you don't like the conditions in the job that you're in, go and get another job. If you can't find one that is better, then you're in the best job that's available to you, so grin and bear it!

Best for French ATC would be for it to be split up into different regions as entirely different employers and the employees to get a share out of the money made from the traffic 'carried'. With that if one region decided to go on strike (e.g. Bordeaux), everyone could route through the other regions (e.g. Marseille) instead and the ATCs there could earn more out of the folly of their colleagues in the striking sector!
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 13:10
  #47 (permalink)  

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ATC Watcher what's your view on the latest from MUAC? Closure in 10 years?
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 13:52
  #48 (permalink)  
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@ LonMore

Havent they been saying that for the last 30yrs!!

MUAC will not close (theres a brand new 5M euro building going up in the car park right now, just for starters).

I think theres a good chance that we might be called something other than Eurocontrol in the next few years though.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 14:22
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Only because we have a competitive market we have to agree with everything is done?!?! What a ! In Greece they just decided yesterday to cancel the public television and radio and fire 2700 people! They have to go home and just say thank you for your opportunity to get a new job?! Why are we becoming all so selfish and not looking around us! Democracy is the only way we can reduce the gap between rich and poor people so here we are talking about rights! About the changes I'm more than agree on find a solution for the rationalisation of the infrastructure, common software and routes, airspace but the fundamental aspect is that people must be sure of the job, it's very important that you can work in front of the radar without the pressure of performance, of incertainity about future or work for many hours, in this job can't work because of the safety aspects involved, than you can change everything, but always listening to the needs of the people.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 17:02
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Talking of Greece....

(GR) Greece air traffic controllers to join strike action scheduled for June 13th - press**NOTE: Other Greek unions today have said they would join in a 24-hour strike tomorrow - Source TradeTheNews.com
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 17:49
  #51 (permalink)  
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Lon More : about Maastricht closing in 10 years, I do not believe that it will happen, not within the 20 years I would say. After ? Who knows?

Main reasons, for me ( I am just giving you my educated opinion ) are many .
first , one of the players ( belgocontrol ) is nearly bankrup and in no position to raise the capital needed to take over back their upper airspace. Even Luxemburg is looking at taking back their airspace ( until FL 245) from them.
.
Next, the main proponents of Maastricht closure and transfer back to Germany have retired from DFS last year and the new guys are far more cautious . The strict rethoric is gone at least.

Then , surprisingly , the tone and words used in the joint letter sent by transports ministers of France and Germany to Commissionner Kallas, indicate clearly that the current cooperative approach and retaining what we have institutionally is , for the time beeing at least, desirable. In other words, we build around what we have, we then look what we can change.

Lastly , the current downfall of traffic , combined with the constant pressure to reduce route charges is not very compatible with the huge costs of closing maastricht and transfering ( i.e building) new facilities to accomodate the sectors and staff.
I think, like many that the name might change , Eurocontrol might pull out ( not so sure of that , but a possibility) , some divisons might shrink or disappear,but the ATC part will most probably remain in Maastricht .
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 18:18
  #52 (permalink)  

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Thanks, Philippe - that was more or less what I thought but got a mail from TUEM recently which puzzled me.
BeT they've been saying that since 1970 at least !!

Last edited by Lon More; 12th Jun 2013 at 18:18.
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Old 12th Jun 2013, 18:40
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Lastly , the current downfall of traffic , combined with the constant pressure to reduce route charges is not very compatible with the huge costs of closing maastricht and transfering ( i.e building) new facilities to accomodate the sectors and staff.
I think, like many that the name might change , Eurocontrol might pull out ( not so sure of that , but a possibility) , some divisons might shrink or disappear,but the ATC part will most probably remain in Maastricht .
Although Lon talked about MUAC closing - and lots of other people including politicians - talk about closing centres to make cost savings, it is probably a bit of a red herring, in the short- to medium-term at least.

I've heard people talking about having one ACC for each FAB but only the most naïve or blinkered would seriously consider this as practical. The most cost-effective approach in the near future will be to operate most of the existing ACCs as they are today and limiting any closures only to those where two facilities can be merged into one. Many States have facilities that are 'bigger' than they currently need, sometimes with the explicit intention of being able to accommodate the work of another centre (although more often justified by providing a contingency facility if an/the other ACC in the State has a catastrophic failure).

The cost savings will come not from uprooting controllers' families and building huge new facilities but by reducing the duplication of management and administration. I have seen in several European countries teams of people doing the same operational support tasks, each with layers of managers making or avoiding decisions above them. If ANSPs genuinely seek to meet the financial performance targets in the near-term, this is where they should look.

Longer-term, the results of SESAR are what will make or break SES. So far, after substantial investment, the technological enablers that will enable the increased traffic of the future to be handled by around the same number of controllers as today, are not looking too promising (in reality rather than the press releases). The SESAR programme should have produced efficiencies by stopping duplication of research and development (quite probably resulting in competing and incompatible solutions) in several countries. What we actually appear to have got is a programme with huge administrative overheads and little product to show for it.

As for Eurocontrol, as things stand today, I'd say there's every chance that it will be gone in 5 years and that's all but a certainty in 10 years. Despite lots of reorganisations and renaming of things it is a behemoth that no longer has much purpose. A lot of what it did ten years ago is now either no longer required or is being done by other organisations (as part of the SES and extension of EASA's remit). All of the restructuring has done little to give the organisation new direction - perhaps because of weak management and strong staff inertia. Unless much of Eurocontrol finds a real job to do, and quickly, it will become redundant. The useful bits have gradually been transformed (in some cases at the behest of the European Commission) into business units that can be spun off into stand-alone cost-recovery bodies or merged into another agency - I'm thinking of the Route Charges Office and MUAC.

The ability of Eurocontrol to perform the Network Management function is yet to be proven and so far many people that I've come across from that part of the organisation seem to think that the Network Manager is just another name for the CFMU. If they can't change that, I am sure there will be others offering to do the job - and for far less money - at the end of the current appointment period.

Ramble now over......
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 07:07
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not on strike but French ATC has now cost me about €1500 in lost wages because I only get paid if I fly. Naturally, despite being on strike, these ladies and gentlemen will still get paid.
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 08:03
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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A pity that European airline aircrew didn't take the same level of action over the absurd nonsense of EASA part-FCL and its 'one size fits all' inflexibility...

The only people benefitting from EASA are its fat cat €urocrats with their tax-free salaries.
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 08:04
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Industrial action 11, 12, 13th June

You can't really blame French ATC for being on a contract that only pays when you fly.
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 08:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Rollnloop

What's the average holding at biggin nowadays ?
Just shows you how much you know about ATC. The holding situation at Heathrow has very little to do with inefficiency of UK ATC.
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 08:56
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not on strike but French ATC has now cost me about €1500 in lost wages because I only get paid if I fly.
But everyone says how good contract flying is. This is what happens if you let Ryanair and similar have their ways!!
You signed for it!!
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 12:18
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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The French call these strikes every summer. They just need an excuse to call them.

The Greek version of the Brit's BBC was closed as it employed circa 3,000 people to do the work of circa 300, and the "jobs" were "owned" by families. A bit like Athens taxi driver licenses. These sorts of nonsense need to end before Greece gets better.

Spanish ATCOs working at gunpoint??? For their money, I, too, would work at gunpoint. They make the Brit ATCO TUs look like useless plonkers. (And I do not think that the nice folk from Prospect are useless plonkers)
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Old 13th Jun 2013, 17:14
  #60 (permalink)  

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Trossie wrote:
"Best ever ATC instruction one can get:
"Contact London on XYZ (freq.)" ...in a French accent!!!"
I wouldn't knock it too hard. Two of the worst bits of ATC I have ever seen were perpetrated by Brits. One could best be described as criminal and lead to the controller being fired. The other was pure bloody-mindedness by someone who didn't want to be working on Christmas Day.
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