Incident at Heathrow
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To quote AAIB Bulletin S3/2013 SPECIAL:
Safety Recommendation 2013-011
It is recommended that Airbus formally notifies operators
of A320-family aircraft of the fan cowl door loss event
on A319 G-EUOE on 24 May 2013, and reiterates the
importance of verifying that the fan cowl doors are
latched prior to flight by visually checking the position
of the latches.
- to refer to my earlier post, what bl**dy good does it do in "visually checking the position of the latches.". I remain pretty damn sure that the latches can be closed/stowed/pushed home/flush, not hooked on, with the cowls still 'dangling'!
The only tell-tale then is the gap around the actual cowls. Am I right?
If so, why the AAIB recommendation to look for latch positions?!!!
Safety Recommendation 2013-011
It is recommended that Airbus formally notifies operators
of A320-family aircraft of the fan cowl door loss event
on A319 G-EUOE on 24 May 2013, and reiterates the
importance of verifying that the fan cowl doors are
latched prior to flight by visually checking the position
of the latches.
- to refer to my earlier post, what bl**dy good does it do in "visually checking the position of the latches.". I remain pretty damn sure that the latches can be closed/stowed/pushed home/flush, not hooked on, with the cowls still 'dangling'!
The only tell-tale then is the gap around the actual cowls. Am I right?
If so, why the AAIB recommendation to look for latch positions?!!!
Last edited by kenjaDROP; 31st May 2013 at 16:28.
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Many people in many jobs have the luxury when they make an error/omission, of simply screwing it up, tossing it in the bin and starting again. It happens all the time.
Pilots OTOH have to pick up the pieces, not just from their own human fallibilities, but those from every other individual along the way. From designer, to manufacturer, to politician, to manager, to trainer, to maintainer, to ATC et al!
Yes they may be paid the 'big bucks', but that alone serves as no protection from their own 'human condition'!
I would expect harsh criticism from only those who are perfect. But I fear I may be disappointed. For such is the nature of some who are attracted to this occupation. I realised that long, long before PPRUNE!
Lessons to (re)learn from this incident as always, but much to admire too!
People (quentinc) should be very careful of assuming that what is shown in the AAIB 'generic' pictures, is what would have been apparent on this specific a/c, at this specific time?
Pilots OTOH have to pick up the pieces, not just from their own human fallibilities, but those from every other individual along the way. From designer, to manufacturer, to politician, to manager, to trainer, to maintainer, to ATC et al!
Yes they may be paid the 'big bucks', but that alone serves as no protection from their own 'human condition'!
I would expect harsh criticism from only those who are perfect. But I fear I may be disappointed. For such is the nature of some who are attracted to this occupation. I realised that long, long before PPRUNE!
Lessons to (re)learn from this incident as always, but much to admire too!
People (quentinc) should be very careful of assuming that what is shown in the AAIB 'generic' pictures, is what would have been apparent on this specific a/c, at this specific time?
Last edited by 4468; 31st May 2013 at 16:23.
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Just a thought - according to the AAIB report a photo taken before pushback showed the doors unlatched - who took the piccie - was it someone who might have understood what he/she was looking at?
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The photo in the AAIB report is of the cowls with the hold-open device still in place (according to the text of the report). As I understand it - from the report and the previous 33 pages of this thread - once that device is deactivated the cowls drop to the fully closed position and the only way to tell they're not latched is to look at the latch position.
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Having opened and closed more fan cowls on various different engines than I care to remember I have to say in IAE ,s defence there is no difference whatsoever in the basic design or method of latching the cowls compared to RR GE CFM or PW engines .
In fact the V2500 engine is the only one I have come across which is available with a secondary cowl lock mod available
In fact the V2500 engine is the only one I have come across which is available with a secondary cowl lock mod available
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Originally Posted by 4468
People (quentinc) should be very careful of assuming that what is shown in the AAIB 'generic' pictures, is what would have been apparent on this specific a/c, at this specific time?
Originally Posted by beanbag
and the only way to tell they're not latched is to look at the latch position.
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Originally Posted by glad rag
Has this happened before?
Edit: - or do you mean to this Captain - one hopes not........................
Last edited by BOAC; 31st May 2013 at 16:52.
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Whilst of course the AAIB report is only interim (and the full, final report will no doubt go into much more depth and detail), it seems to me shocking that their only recommendation do far is to reiterate the need to check the cowl latches on walk-around.
There's clearly something fundamentally wrong with maintenance procedures if mechanics can simply forget to latch the cowls, and presumably with no supervisory check on this.
This is going to happen again, quite possibly with dire results.
There's clearly something fundamentally wrong with maintenance procedures if mechanics can simply forget to latch the cowls, and presumably with no supervisory check on this.
This is going to happen again, quite possibly with dire results.
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I wonder if some bright (and in contrast with the outside colour) paint could be used over the full length/circumference, on the "edge" of the cowl which would not be normally visible when properly closed and latched...?
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Seriously, folks - is it beyond Airbus to design a working latch that will hang down if it is not latched?
I wonder if some bright (and in contrast with the outside colour) paint could be used over the full length/circumference, on the "edge" of the cowl which would not be normally visible when properly closed and latched...?
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BOAC, I've taken this incident so to heart (see my posts #543 and 641) that I've actually designed one, albeit on my simple CAD program here - a latch that can't be closed unless it is hooked over it's mating eye-bolt/toggle! Therefore it will hang down if unlatched. This is based on the existing V2500 latch design but modified.
I'm not publishing it here in case someone in Placentia, CA pinches it without royalties!! I'm off to the patents office on Monday! Just joking!!
I'm not publishing it here in case someone in Placentia, CA pinches it without royalties!! I'm off to the patents office on Monday! Just joking!!
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Originally Posted by smelly
No, it's not and that's what they do; hang down if they are not latched.
Post #59 "the training captain said to me on the walk around, 'always bend down and check the fan cowl latches are actually secured, they can easily be left unlatched and not noticed'"
From the Canadian report
"The fan cowling has four latches that connect at the bottom of the engine. The fan cowling doors are heavy and designed such that, when hanging unsupported, they fair flush, giving the appearance of being locked, even if they are not latched. Normally, the latches can be in three possible conditions (see Appendix A):
- latches fully locked and will appear flush with the cowling;
- latches closed, but cowling not locked. In this condition, they will protrude about one inch underneath the cowling. This is the normal condition of the latches after maintenance opens the cowling, until the latches are re-locked; and
- latches fully open and cowling unlocked. This is considered a temporary condition after unlocking the cowls. According to industry standard, the latches are immediately closed because the fully unlocked latch presents a personal injury risk to maintenance engineers. Fully unlocked latches protrude down about four inches from the bottom of the cowling."
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Design fault maybe, but the latches on a 73 or 75 are not much different. One Engineer forgot to latch them, could have been a mechanic and the stamper hasn't checked the work, a CAT A who forgot. However if it was a service check, the cowls should have been on that task card for the check. I can remember anywhere I have worked where dupes on cowls happens, oil tank caps, yes, but not cowls. The last resort was on the walkround, and that was missed too, but nobody has mentioned any possible reasons for all these cheese holes lined up.. MEDA will be interesting.
As for latch condition, if you try and close the doors to latch them, with the latches in the open position (handle unlocked from the lug), the lug floats about and can trap between the cowls, making it impossible to reposition them on the correct location. I was shown and did carry out the closing operation with the latches shut, close the doors, unlock the latches, locate the lugs on the hooks then lock them. However once closed, I would lock them shut and never walk away until I did..
As for latch condition, if you try and close the doors to latch them, with the latches in the open position (handle unlocked from the lug), the lug floats about and can trap between the cowls, making it impossible to reposition them on the correct location. I was shown and did carry out the closing operation with the latches shut, close the doors, unlock the latches, locate the lugs on the hooks then lock them. However once closed, I would lock them shut and never walk away until I did..
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 31st May 2013 at 17:47.
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Design fault maybe
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but nobody has mentioned any possible reasons for all these cheese holes lined up.. MEDA will be interesting.
Let's look at the success rate (no cowls unlatched in-flight) between the various airlines operating this type design (multiple aircraft types?) since the latest SB was issued.
Now if this was so difficult to comply with I'm quite sure all the airlines would be proposing their own work-around to Airbus without any help from this forum.
The question is did they?
or did they just accept that the devil they know is better than a new Airbus invention?
If the last statement is true then the issue lies more with the operator than the engineering folk at Airbus especially if the operator convinced their regulator that they could/would easily comply with the Service bulletin.
Now I don't know the answers to the questions I raise but I certainly don't trust the viability of the solutions I've seen posted on this thread.
Now if this was so difficult to comply with I'm quite sure all the airlines would be proposing their own work-around to Airbus without any help from this forum.
The question is did they?
or did they just accept that the devil they know is better than a new Airbus invention?
If the last statement is true then the issue lies more with the operator than the engineering folk at Airbus especially if the operator convinced their regulator that they could/would easily comply with the Service bulletin.
Now I don't know the answers to the questions I raise but I certainly don't trust the viability of the solutions I've seen posted on this thread.