Incident at Heathrow
Where are the cowlings now?
Have they been found near the runway? or in Chelsea/Westminster/Kensington?
Have they been found near the runway? or in Chelsea/Westminster/Kensington?
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So presumably the implication is that ATC cannot "insist" that an aircraft diverts away from a populated area in case --in this instance--the crew might have found themselves committed to a Heathrow approach and the other engine failed.
I have flown out of LHR as main base for nearly 20 years with 2 large operators. Not once has the matter been raised (nor at other similar airfields near cities) in training, publications nor pre-flight emergency briefs at routing clear of built up areas.
It might be a valid question to ask, but if it becomes unacceptable, it basically means LHR is unacceptable as an airport. Unless we develop a special MEL type document for each airport / approach specifiying minimum required equipment (all engines & cowlings fitted / working
) that applies even in emergency I cannot see any progress?Reverse the situation, and say yesterday's events had turned out to be the worst case i.e. failures mutiplied, and the aircraft did end up in London with loss of life. Who would history "blame"? I doubt the crew, or airline, or ATC. It would have to be the whole "system" had not factored this in. And the end result would be Boris Island, but that's another debate
NoD
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Where are the cowlings now? Have they been found near the runway? or in Chelsea/Westminster/Kensington?
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NOD
I have flown out of LHR as main base for nearly 20 years with 2 large operators. Not once has the matter been raised (nor at other similar airfields near cities) in training, publications nor pre-flight emergency briefs at routing clear of built up areas.
It might be a valid question to ask, but if it becomes unacceptable, it basically means LHR is unacceptable as an airport. Unless we develop a special MEL type document for each airport / approach specifiying minimum required equipment (all engines & cowlings fitted / working ) that applies even in emergency I cannot see any progress?
I have flown out of LHR as main base for nearly 20 years with 2 large operators. Not once has the matter been raised (nor at other similar airfields near cities) in training, publications nor pre-flight emergency briefs at routing clear of built up areas.
It might be a valid question to ask, but if it becomes unacceptable, it basically means LHR is unacceptable as an airport. Unless we develop a special MEL type document for each airport / approach specifiying minimum required equipment (all engines & cowlings fitted / working ) that applies even in emergency I cannot see any progress?
But using that logic it would mean 6 times as many cowling fasteners to miss being locked at some point, it's happened before and it will happen again so long as management continue to cut corners and bean counters continue to cut costs.
Last edited by F900 Ex; 27th May 2013 at 05:48.
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Funny coincidence that BA have been advertising recently for licensed engineers (full licence not A) Word from inside is that they are seriously short, and stretching the existing fully licensed qualified staff to the limit. Also hear the recruitment dozens of non experienced unqualified 'mechanics' has not been received to we'll by the CAA
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Unless we develop a special MEL type document for each airport / approach specifiying minimum required equipment
Completely impractical
The Airbus flight safety magazine, Safety First carried an article in the July 2012 edition entitled "Preventing Fan Cowl Door Loss".
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...uly%202012.pdf
It mentions that there are more instances on the A320 than the wide body Airbus types, probably due to the low level of the cowling latches meaning thay are missed. It also empahsises the importance of checking the latches during the crew walk around check.
An article which will soon be required reading in BA I think!
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...uly%202012.pdf
It mentions that there are more instances on the A320 than the wide body Airbus types, probably due to the low level of the cowling latches meaning thay are missed. It also empahsises the importance of checking the latches during the crew walk around check.
An article which will soon be required reading in BA I think!
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F900 Ex (and many others)
A post typical of this website, where you have not understood what is being said and use that wall butting nonsense.
I have a look at the site occasionally to see if anyone has brought up some interesting points, or perhaps a healthy debate of the FACTS, but you learn far more about the personalities than the facts. I realise the words " Rumour" and "professional" are not exactly compatible but the lack of "IMHO" on this site is staggering. By all means speculate, but it's the pontificate that is so off putting.
A post typical of this website, where you have not understood what is being said and use that wall butting nonsense.
I have a look at the site occasionally to see if anyone has brought up some interesting points, or perhaps a healthy debate of the FACTS, but you learn far more about the personalities than the facts. I realise the words " Rumour" and "professional" are not exactly compatible but the lack of "IMHO" on this site is staggering. By all means speculate, but it's the pontificate that is so off putting.
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Of course it is entirely true that built-up areas cannot be avoided around LHR given that it is hemmed in on all sides, but the industry cannot ignore the potential consequences of relegating this aspect of safety to the point of a quick decision in the event of an emergency.
I think you are right NoD - a worst case scenario would strongly increase political pressure for Boris island to the point that LHR would be history. Indeed this may yet result from this incident if the AAIB blames BA procedures and questions the return to LHR from a public safety perspective - BA's case for a third runway will be seriously undermined. Such a situation would call into question the whole way maintenance is managed and carried out, which would mean very difficult questions for the CAA, BA and individuals managing and doing the work.
Over-worked, under-staffed and under-qualified maintenance staff suggests under-paid maintenace staff. But none of that can in any way excuse not knowing how to, or worse forgetting to, fasten the cowls to the engine. And it is entirely legitimate to ask why it was not picked up in pre-flight checks, if only to ensure changes make such an invent less likely.
I think you are right NoD - a worst case scenario would strongly increase political pressure for Boris island to the point that LHR would be history. Indeed this may yet result from this incident if the AAIB blames BA procedures and questions the return to LHR from a public safety perspective - BA's case for a third runway will be seriously undermined. Such a situation would call into question the whole way maintenance is managed and carried out, which would mean very difficult questions for the CAA, BA and individuals managing and doing the work.
Over-worked, under-staffed and under-qualified maintenance staff suggests under-paid maintenace staff. But none of that can in any way excuse not knowing how to, or worse forgetting to, fasten the cowls to the engine. And it is entirely legitimate to ask why it was not picked up in pre-flight checks, if only to ensure changes make such an invent less likely.
I read the airbus flight safety magazine article (PDF) an in this magazine the latches are RED. So more easily visible.
In the youtube video a few pages back, the latches are identical, but GREY (metal) so less easily visible.
What color were they in this case?
In the youtube video a few pages back, the latches are identical, but GREY (metal) so less easily visible.
What color were they in this case?
Over-worked, under-staffed and under-qualified maintenance staff suggests under-paid maintenace staff. But none of that can in any way excuse not knowing how to, or worse forgetting to, fasten the cowls to the engine.
Reasons, Yes.
All of the criteria quoted above have been common factors in many accidents and incidents. That is why millions have been spent on Human Factors training and it is also part of the CAA Maint Licence syllabus.
Unfortunately, some employers choose to pay lip service to it.
Last edited by TURIN; 25th May 2013 at 08:40.
It mentions that there are more instances on the A320 than the wide body Airbus types, probably due to the low level of the cowling latches meaning thay are missed. It also emphasises the importance of checking the latches during the crew walk around check.
Latches on open doors should always be left in a “not engaged” position, which means that they will hang down when the doors are closed and not latched (fig.2) . This ensures easy identification of an unlatched door condition
After opening the latches and disengaging the hooks from the eyebolts, the normal practice is to re-close the latches to prevent the hooks from protruding and misaligning with the eyebolts when the door is subsequently closed;
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Given the inevitable slight confusion on the flight deck as events unfolded, I guess Luton was ruled out due to the less-than-ideal r/w length and the possibility of one or both TR maybe being inoperable. I do however wonder why STN - with its v long r/w, was not chosen.
Why not choose STN? You've got problems with potentially both engines and you're downwind at your familiar homebase. You can't just drop into an unfamiliar base without getting charts, plates, performance and briefings. On the other hand, an approach into LHR is a non-event for BA airbus pilots.