Incident at Heathrow
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Agaricus bisporus
Screwdrivers !
I am very buch in disagreement with you about the screwdriver, I have not a chance of getting mine on to LGW or any other UK airport, as fight crew it would seem that those in security cant or wont except that on occations I need to check the fuel sticks or check a cowling is locked.
You are correct as to the airside "tools of the trade" rules but getting any logical or sensable answers form those involved with security as to what a pilot can carry on duty is next to imposable as they all spend most of the time gold plating the rules just to cover their own six.
The other problem is that what is good for one UK airport is not good at another when it comes to what a crewmember may take airside.
The bottom line is that flight crew are now so distrusted by security that they cant carry tools that in the past have been used to check things that might not strictly be part of their job discription but were worth a quick look at on a walk around inspection and by doing so the security system has removed the last back stop in a flight safety system.
I am very buch in disagreement with you about the screwdriver, I have not a chance of getting mine on to LGW or any other UK airport, as fight crew it would seem that those in security cant or wont except that on occations I need to check the fuel sticks or check a cowling is locked.
You are correct as to the airside "tools of the trade" rules but getting any logical or sensable answers form those involved with security as to what a pilot can carry on duty is next to imposable as they all spend most of the time gold plating the rules just to cover their own six.
The other problem is that what is good for one UK airport is not good at another when it comes to what a crewmember may take airside.
The bottom line is that flight crew are now so distrusted by security that they cant carry tools that in the past have been used to check things that might not strictly be part of their job discription but were worth a quick look at on a walk around inspection and by doing so the security system has removed the last back stop in a flight safety system.
Last edited by A and C; 29th May 2013 at 12:15.
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A and C
Screwdrivers !
Screwdrivers !
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Fan cowl latch closed indicator
As far as I remember on the DC-10 there was a pop up indicator (on the engine two at least) to show you from the ground that the fan was not properly closed. It was a simple mechanical mechanism with a red index which was visible from the ground during WAC.
It's seems that current technologies could not duplicate it !!!
It's seems that current technologies could not duplicate it !!!
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Greenspinner...
The Dear Old Diesel Dixie (with CF6-50's) did indeed have pop-out indicators, but they were for the latch handle of the reverser cowl closing mechanism. They were both sides of all three... if the handle wasn't closed properly, or not rigged properly, it's end would hit the trigger for the spring-loaded pop-out (you'd see a red dowel sticking out of the fan cowl about 2 inches.).
The V2500 cowl issue could easily be fixed by a spring device that held the cowls open a bit until and unless they were latched closed. ....and I agree, since it almost requires getting on your knees to verify the latches are all closed, some simple pop-out device (popped if any latch not latched) is a great idea.
As has been said, It happens to them more often simply because they sit naturally fully closed (without being latched). The KISS principle ought to be considered in any response.
The Dear Old Diesel Dixie (with CF6-50's) did indeed have pop-out indicators, but they were for the latch handle of the reverser cowl closing mechanism. They were both sides of all three... if the handle wasn't closed properly, or not rigged properly, it's end would hit the trigger for the spring-loaded pop-out (you'd see a red dowel sticking out of the fan cowl about 2 inches.).
The V2500 cowl issue could easily be fixed by a spring device that held the cowls open a bit until and unless they were latched closed. ....and I agree, since it almost requires getting on your knees to verify the latches are all closed, some simple pop-out device (popped if any latch not latched) is a great idea.
As has been said, It happens to them more often simply because they sit naturally fully closed (without being latched). The KISS principle ought to be considered in any response.
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Just to show no-one is immune. In the video posted earlier, The maintenance crew have clearly latched the fan cowl closed without correctly latching the forward C-Duct latch. At around 8.50 the red flag is clearly visible!
Airbus A320 (V2500) Opening & Closing of Engine Cowl Doors - YouTube
To add to other comments, There is a mod (mandatory via EASA and FAA AD's) which puts a spring loaded block in the front of the nacelle which stops the doors from being fully down until the block is moved out of the way. So if the doors are just dropped then they don't appear latched. Once the block has been moved and the doors ready for the latching It is recommended in the AMM that the process should be completed.
Somehow it seems this was allowed to happen prior to this flight.
Airbus A320 (V2500) Opening & Closing of Engine Cowl Doors - YouTube
To add to other comments, There is a mod (mandatory via EASA and FAA AD's) which puts a spring loaded block in the front of the nacelle which stops the doors from being fully down until the block is moved out of the way. So if the doors are just dropped then they don't appear latched. Once the block has been moved and the doors ready for the latching It is recommended in the AMM that the process should be completed.
Somehow it seems this was allowed to happen prior to this flight.
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>>>You can't just drop into an unfamiliar base without
>>>getting charts, plates, performance and briefings.
>>Yes you can. You press the PTT and say "what's your ILS
>>frequency and inbound course?"
Nice reply Mr Spandex. And quite correct too.
But you forgot to add that the modern f/o would be heads-down reprogramming the FMC for most of the approach, and would only finish setting it up as you taxied in on stand at Stansted.
So much for modern training methods......
.
>>>getting charts, plates, performance and briefings.
>>Yes you can. You press the PTT and say "what's your ILS
>>frequency and inbound course?"
Nice reply Mr Spandex. And quite correct too.
But you forgot to add that the modern f/o would be heads-down reprogramming the FMC for most of the approach, and would only finish setting it up as you taxied in on stand at Stansted.
So much for modern training methods......
.
Or a flight engineer prepared to get his knees wet.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by silverstrata
So much for modern training methods......
Scenario. Let's be totally over-dramatic (just for fun). Bits are actually dropping off my machine. I have had a structural failure - let's say an oxy bottle explodes, blowing bits into an engine and damaging the pylon.
Me to 'modern f/o': "Look, there's Stansted down there, I'm going in on R05. Tell London ATC I'm going visual on a Mayday".
'Modern f/o to me: "...but we don't have charts or a company frequency and I need to put the approach in the FMC - and we haven't briefed - you know, minima, autobrake, reverse.... ".
Me to modern f/o: "Gear down, landing checks to flaps"
Didn't we always say that the Swissair cockpit fire gave us some important lessons (yes, I know it would not have mattered, but we should learn)?
Isn't that just the truth. In my last job we flew mostly in the middle of the night and traffic was light. Assuming that the weather was reasonably benign most airfields in Europe would offer us a straight-in visual to the opposite end of the runway given on the ATIS.
This used to cause great panic to a lot of the youngsters that I was trying to teach. As you say, their first reaction was to start trying to punch rubbish into the automatics.
I used to stop them very, very firmly and make them look out of the window and land the bloody aeroplane.
What would cause even more panic was if ATC invited them to fly a visual approach from downwind.
How can these people call themselves professional PILOTS?
This used to cause great panic to a lot of the youngsters that I was trying to teach. As you say, their first reaction was to start trying to punch rubbish into the automatics.
I used to stop them very, very firmly and make them look out of the window and land the bloody aeroplane.
What would cause even more panic was if ATC invited them to fly a visual approach from downwind.
How can these people call themselves professional PILOTS?
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BOAC, as I responded to the original I went and found it for you.
That's fine with me. He may be too busy and may or may not have heard the autopilot come out, the gear go down etc.. But as long as he isn't hindering then no snags.
Why not choose STN? You've got problems with potentially both engines and you're downwind at your familiar homebase. You can't just drop into an unfamiliar base without getting charts, plates, performance and briefings. On the other hand, an approach into LHR is a non-event for BA airbus pilots.
Originally Posted by Silver
But you forgot to add that the modern f/o would be heads-down reprogramming the FMC for most of the approach, and would only finish setting it up as you taxied in on stand at Stansted.
BOAC if you want how it should be done look up the newish Swissair MD 80 with a fire in the overhead panel...
Smoke appeared around 10 mins out of Munich...did a 180 and landed downwind within 10 mins..stand to be corrected on the time.
No forward viz and co pilot was fanning the skippers ASI to read the airspeed.
Everything covered in ash.
Skipper (mate of mine) was walking around with hand in bandages for a month or so from being burnt.
Fire from battery emergency bus...circuit breaker underfloor.
Another but more resent was an airbus airborne LHR with several hydraulic failure warnings - pages said off load all systems..did a quick circuit -Apparently computor failure.
So there are some pilots still who can fly but they wouldn't be 150hr pay to fly ones.
Smoke appeared around 10 mins out of Munich...did a 180 and landed downwind within 10 mins..stand to be corrected on the time.
No forward viz and co pilot was fanning the skippers ASI to read the airspeed.
Everything covered in ash.
Skipper (mate of mine) was walking around with hand in bandages for a month or so from being burnt.
Fire from battery emergency bus...circuit breaker underfloor.
Another but more resent was an airbus airborne LHR with several hydraulic failure warnings - pages said off load all systems..did a quick circuit -Apparently computor failure.
So there are some pilots still who can fly but they wouldn't be 150hr pay to fly ones.
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Originally Posted by wannabe
The older I get the better I was...
Bit of a shame that one's job was the sole source of identity and self-esteem.
From the usual excellent reliable news source (AvHerald):
On May 29th the NTSB reported quoting the AAIB, that both engine cowl doors separated during takeoff and fell onto the runway, one engine was leaking fuel and had been shut down, they were returning to Heathrow. Later the crew reported the other (still running) engine was on fire, the aircraft continued for a safe landing, was shut down and evacuated. The NTSB assigned an accredited representative into the investigation led by the AAIB.
On May 29th the NTSB reported quoting the AAIB, that both engine cowl doors separated during takeoff and fell onto the runway, one engine was leaking fuel and had been shut down, they were returning to Heathrow. Later the crew reported the other (still running) engine was on fire, the aircraft continued for a safe landing, was shut down and evacuated. The NTSB assigned an accredited representative into the investigation led by the AAIB.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by one outsider
to diminish younger generations
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seems like only a matter of time before there is a pile of bodies to deal with if this isn't fixed.
didn't airbus swop out the pitot tubes after the last gigantic pile of bodies?shoudn't they be proactive here rather than dodging the issue till it bites a boatload of people at once
can there really be any viable excuse when they have 75 bodies lined up under wraps?
didn't airbus swop out the pitot tubes after the last gigantic pile of bodies?shoudn't they be proactive here rather than dodging the issue till it bites a boatload of people at once
can there really be any viable excuse when they have 75 bodies lined up under wraps?
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Would it be worth pilots feeling the difference between a secure and insecure cowl door side-by-side? Not my aircraft, but I'd have thought there'd be some telltale sign that could be easily verified on walkround, even without that banned screwdriver, providing you knew exactly what to look for.
Saftey First - July 2012
Last edited by Jet II; 29th May 2013 at 16:49. Reason: crap spelling