Incident at Heathrow
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So !!, based on the speculation, what was it like going into work the day after as A319 pilots, how is it referenced at team briefs ?, is it taboo untill the AAIB report or is talked about in a quiet room or are you sent on your way with a final shout from the room, "and remember and check those bloody latches".......point is though in the limbo stage between incident and report, how is it treated at the sharp end ??
in the limbo stage between incident and report, how is it treated at the sharp end ??
I think it's safe to assume that BA co-pilots' dry-cleaning bills are about to shoot up as everyone gets down on their knees during the walkaround to check the security of the cowl doors.
what was it like going into work the day after as A319 pilots
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I think it's safe to assume that BA co-pilots' dry-cleaning bills are about to shoot up as everyone gets down on their knees during the walkaround to check the security of the cowl doors.
As slf I personally would pay £1 extra on every flight to meet these dry cleaning bills if that's what it takes to ensure no airliner is endangered in this way again.
As slf I personally would pay £1 extra on every flight to meet these dry cleaning bills if that's what it takes to ensure no airliner is endangered in this way again.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by DRUK
I think it's safe to assume that BA co-pilots' dry-cleaning bills are about to shoot up
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Cowl mod
My other aircraft is a Twin Squirrel. Recently Eurocopter mandated a secondary latch system that was published as an AD. If you close the cowlings, the secondary system will latch in place. Even if the "primary " latches are not secured, the new "secondary" system will keep them attached to the airframe.
The bill was in excess of £10K and at the time, I thought it major overkill, especially as all the cowl latches are easily visible from the walk round. As in the Airbus, my other aircraft, 757/767, have latches at the six o'clock and I have never crawled under the engine to specifically physically check them as locked. I have always imagined the gap around the other sections of cowl would give away an unlocked cowl.
Perhaps Eurocopter have a neat idea?
The bill was in excess of £10K and at the time, I thought it major overkill, especially as all the cowl latches are easily visible from the walk round. As in the Airbus, my other aircraft, 757/767, have latches at the six o'clock and I have never crawled under the engine to specifically physically check them as locked. I have always imagined the gap around the other sections of cowl would give away an unlocked cowl.
Perhaps Eurocopter have a neat idea?
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cowl latches
You dont need a mod.Just another check box on current tech log page along the lines of:have the cowls been opened since last flight ? yes /no.if yes sign for cowl latch check (signed by maint staff). Or similar.I know this is probaly covered in current pre flight sheets but to highlight it on tech log page might focus maintenance/crew attention
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Incident at Heathrow
A long time ago someone invented the retractable undercarriage. Shortly afterwards pilots started landing wheels up, not often and usually when they were tired or distracted. At first managers said we must have " more rigour" and I'm sure that if Prune had been around there would have been pages of sanctimonious tosh. Sadly "rigour" failed to solve the problem and eventually the bean counters worked out that warning systems were cheaper than wheels up in the long run and the problem was solved.
Sadly aircraft kept flying into the ground, not often just when the pilots were tired or distracted, once more the managers called for "rigour" . Unfortunately aircraft continued to hit the ground so GPWS was invented and it hardly ever happened. When it did crews were accused of lack of "rigour". Fortunately along came EGPWS and the problem was largely solved.
I am sure the managers would like to keep Airbus cowlings closed by the application of more "rigour". Unfortunately I am equally sure that the problem will reoccur because at the end of the day most people involved in aviation are human.
I have no idea if the correct engineering procedures were followed in this case, nor do I know how easy it would have been to spot on the walk round. I am pretty sure however that if there had been an ECAM or a large flag hanging off the engine the aircraft would not have got airborne.
Sadly aircraft kept flying into the ground, not often just when the pilots were tired or distracted, once more the managers called for "rigour" . Unfortunately aircraft continued to hit the ground so GPWS was invented and it hardly ever happened. When it did crews were accused of lack of "rigour". Fortunately along came EGPWS and the problem was largely solved.
I am sure the managers would like to keep Airbus cowlings closed by the application of more "rigour". Unfortunately I am equally sure that the problem will reoccur because at the end of the day most people involved in aviation are human.
I have no idea if the correct engineering procedures were followed in this case, nor do I know how easy it would have been to spot on the walk round. I am pretty sure however that if there had been an ECAM or a large flag hanging off the engine the aircraft would not have got airborne.
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Allosaurus...totally agree...this is the simplest way to prevent a recurrence..current pre UOE incident policy required a tech log entry when cowls were opened but apparently rarely done..already post UOE a duplicate sign off in AML needed when cowls have been opened.....totally impracticable on a walkround for flight crew to lie under the engine to confirm latch closure especially if cowling weight gives impression of totally closed and if latches have been secured closed when cowling was open...fault lies with poor design feature and also with authorities for failing to act on many previous events...VS A320 LGW Incident in 2000? raised all these concerns.
VS A320 LGW Incident in 2000?
Among the AAIB's recommendations in the investigation report:
"It is recommended that the DGAC mandate aircraft modification aimed at appreciably reducing the likelihood of A320 fan cowl doors inadvertently remaining unlatched after maintenance. It is considered that, while measures to exhort maintenance personnel to ensure the doors are latched and to improve the conspicuity of unfastened latches may assist, they are unlikely to be fully effective and modification aimed at providing obvious indication of unlatched doors is required."
"It is recommended that the DGAC and Airbus Industrie consider the incorporation of a system to provide flight deck warning of unlatched fan cowl doors on the A319, A320, A321 and A330 aircraft types."
Enough said.
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Allosaurus, you don't even need a new box. Just write it in like, for instance, "gear pins fitted" and then "gear pins unfitted!" Trouble is people forget to do that and they'll forget to tick the box as well. Even then it doesn't mean they've physically done anything except ink some paper.
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cowl check
Spandex Masher
Yes i take your point that it could be written on tech log page,but that could be forgotten.If theres a check box it brings it to your attention.
Also I think you might have impuned the integrity of many LAME.s by suggesting that its just ink on paper.,that LAME,s dont do their job correctly and sign for things in the tech log that they havent done?
Yes i take your point that it could be written on tech log page,but that could be forgotten.If theres a check box it brings it to your attention.
Also I think you might have impuned the integrity of many LAME.s by suggesting that its just ink on paper.,that LAME,s dont do their job correctly and sign for things in the tech log that they havent done?
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Would it be worth pilots feeling the difference between a secure and insecure cowl door side-by-side? Not my aircraft, but I'd have thought there'd be some telltale sign that could be easily verified on walkround, even without that banned screwdriver, providing you knew exactly what to look for.
Last edited by Sillert,V.I.; 28th May 2013 at 11:36.
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Allosaurus,
Also I think you might have impuned the integrity of many LAME.s by suggesting that its just ink on paper.,that LAME,s dont do their job correctly and sign for things in the tech log that they havent done?
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There have been ~5500 A320 series delivered. They do, say 3 sectors per day, and 1 "daily service" opening the cowls. An engineering team might meet say 20 (?) aircraft on an evening shift to service overnight.
There have been ~15 "loss of cowl(s)" incidents, nil accidents AFAIK (although that would require a close look at the definition - NB damage to engines and cowlings is not counted).
Is a repetitive paperwork, or rigour, exercise going to solve the issue? In times of cost/manning pressures? Or are these very rare "slips" better solved by trying to easily highlight the problem prior dispatch as previous recommendations have stated (and been ignored)?
There have been ~15 "loss of cowl(s)" incidents, nil accidents AFAIK (although that would require a close look at the definition - NB damage to engines and cowlings is not counted).
Is a repetitive paperwork, or rigour, exercise going to solve the issue? In times of cost/manning pressures? Or are these very rare "slips" better solved by trying to easily highlight the problem prior dispatch as previous recommendations have stated (and been ignored)?
Last edited by NigelOnDraft; 28th May 2013 at 12:19.
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Maybe a silly suggestion, coming from the "cheap seats" GA... but all this talk of dry cleaning bills, AD's, sensors, EICAM etc., worries me a little. Can't help but wonder, would a little lo-tech help with confirming the cowl latch position, without all this hassle, heartache, expense and drama? Something like, maybe, a mirror on a stick?
Just a thought...
Just a thought...