avherald: Pilots fired for letting pax take pilot seat
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Coming back from Capetown, South Africa in a 747 the captain knew we were pilots so invited us up with our wives to spend an hour coming across the Atlantic to chat. Times are different now. It is sad but necessary due to current events. Evil people in the world will probably never let us return to this era of aviation. We need to protect ourselves more than ever in history. Crazy people are doing crazy things so we must protect ourselves, unfortunately. I don't see anything changing.
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Friend of mine, NOT a pilot or working for an airline got very recently a visit to the flightdeck in cruise and an offer to sit on the jump for landing in Rio de Janeiro.
Airline: Lufthansa.
I will say this again: Not ALL companies and flightcrew are paranoia anal retentives
Airline: Lufthansa.
I will say this again: Not ALL companies and flightcrew are paranoia anal retentives
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No, I forced my FO to say that is against company policy captain and I said it is safe and it is my retirement flight and I heard your advice. He was covered because I took full responsibility for a minor policy deviation. My FO was a neighbor and friend so was not going to let him get involved if a FA had a complaint filed. They were cool so no problem but he was covered because I wouldn't have put him in trouble. All of the FA's liked me because I was married to one and treated them right or I would hear from it from my wife. Trust me!
I don't like the rules anymore than anyone else does. I believe that a locked flight deck door will do nothing other than deter the odd lone, opportunist lunatic. But why should I face losing my job and possibly facing prosecution because a Captain is on his last flight and fancies having someone up for a jolly? You'd be amazed at what passengers in the first couple of rows pick up on, no matter how discrete you try to be. How do you guarantee they don't report it?
Last edited by jetset lady; 3rd Jul 2013 at 14:11.
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Despegue, the 9-11 crews were not paranoid or retentive. Access to their Flight Decks was easy & they had their throats cut. Their aircraft were then used as Guided Weapons. Because of that, individual airlines developed sophisticated doors, sophisticated "Door Locked Policies" and very clear SOPS. Most professional pilots do what they are paid to do and follow SOPS. You are not being particularly clever if you think it will never happen to you & you are certainly being extremely unprofessional if you take a light hearted view of safety procedures and bend the rules when it suits you. Would that Lufthansa pax write in to the Company Head of Security & thank him/her for the wonderful experience. Oh, & then come back to the "Professional" pilots network & tell us what the follow-up was . Thanks.
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slowjet, what you and others seem to have difficulty in grasping is that different airlines have different sops regarding this subject. Some of you blindly believe that your own airline sops reflect all airline sops worldwide. They don't. Some countries and their airlines are more under threat then others and their government regulations and airline sops reflect this. Other countries and their airlines operate with a locked FD door but nevertheless continue to give their Captains autonomy regarding FD visits.
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PERCeiVED THREAT??? We all know that PAX visited the flight deck on numerous occasions prior to 9/11 probably into millions if the truth be known over decades.
Have people changed NO! Has our perception of a threat changed BIG TIME.
Do not forget that the security industry is a massive multi billion $ industry forever looking out to add more security procedures to increase their industry all under the veil of protecting you and I from a tragic end.
Go onto the London tube system on a busy friday night and watch thousands of passengers dragging large cases which could be packed with all sorts of explosives and all manner of everything completely unchallenged by anyone.
Do they put their cases through scanning equipment? Do they remove liquids? NO they stream into those tube trains in equal numbers to any airline totally unsupervised.
Is the threat there less? NO NO NO!
Fact is any security on the tubes even minor would bring the system to a grinding halt. The authorities know that so turn a blind eye but avaiation???
A massive multi billion $ industry and we have all been brainwashed into the way we think nowadays.
Have people changed NO! Has our perception of a threat changed BIG TIME.
Do not forget that the security industry is a massive multi billion $ industry forever looking out to add more security procedures to increase their industry all under the veil of protecting you and I from a tragic end.
Go onto the London tube system on a busy friday night and watch thousands of passengers dragging large cases which could be packed with all sorts of explosives and all manner of everything completely unchallenged by anyone.
Do they put their cases through scanning equipment? Do they remove liquids? NO they stream into those tube trains in equal numbers to any airline totally unsupervised.
Is the threat there less? NO NO NO!
Fact is any security on the tubes even minor would bring the system to a grinding halt. The authorities know that so turn a blind eye but avaiation???
A massive multi billion $ industry and we have all been brainwashed into the way we think nowadays.
Last edited by Pace; 4th Jul 2013 at 13:46.
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I've always been confused about the 100mm bottles. 5 guys in cahoots equals 500mm and that's OK. 1 nutter with 125mm is a massive threat. I think not. I understand it is now OK to take a steel knife on board with blade the length of a credit card; so the security guys in UK told me. My Swiss Army is such a knife with scalpel sharp steel. It's OK, but my yoghurt? oh no.
I once watched as the water bottles and other liquids were passed through the X-ray machine to be then used to extract the hard earned dosh from the pax on the other side. I asked how the x-ray detected the water. Silence. I then asked that if it was OK for the WH Smith water to be x-rayed and approved why not mine. Even more silence. How come the Airline passenger association is not asking the same question.
The perceived threat will always be more effective than the act. You mention the trains & tubes; what about the Chunnel? It's almost as bad as 'reds under the beds' and look where that led in UK & USA.
I once watched as the water bottles and other liquids were passed through the X-ray machine to be then used to extract the hard earned dosh from the pax on the other side. I asked how the x-ray detected the water. Silence. I then asked that if it was OK for the WH Smith water to be x-rayed and approved why not mine. Even more silence. How come the Airline passenger association is not asking the same question.
The perceived threat will always be more effective than the act. You mention the trains & tubes; what about the Chunnel? It's almost as bad as 'reds under the beds' and look where that led in UK & USA.
I've just retired so can not be held to account by my employer. I have seen flying degenerate to being an awful experience. We always had passengers on the flight deck and on some occasions my company sold jumpseats. It was an important recruiting tool and provided an insight by the public into what we do.
Then, after the outrage in 2001 we lost our courage and instead of slapping down the element responsible we started to intimidate old ladies, take toy soldiers from little boys and generally criminalise all airline passengers. Equally guilty in the name of political correctness.
I only got the big flight deck door in my last few years. This monstrousity certainly makes a statement. Not only to the pax. I always believed that in the event of a serious ground incident that this door would contribute to my demise.
As crew I have never felt so mistrusted, some of the experiences (all in the UK) at the war on terror were just unbelievable. Not all in front of pax either.
I felt less safe during the latter years and believe that a large part of the whole thing is theatre and will not fly on holiday unless absolutely necessary. Unfortunately my children are beyond rail.
I wonder what motivates people to become pilots these days. There isn't even the flying.
Then, after the outrage in 2001 we lost our courage and instead of slapping down the element responsible we started to intimidate old ladies, take toy soldiers from little boys and generally criminalise all airline passengers. Equally guilty in the name of political correctness.
I only got the big flight deck door in my last few years. This monstrousity certainly makes a statement. Not only to the pax. I always believed that in the event of a serious ground incident that this door would contribute to my demise.
As crew I have never felt so mistrusted, some of the experiences (all in the UK) at the war on terror were just unbelievable. Not all in front of pax either.
I felt less safe during the latter years and believe that a large part of the whole thing is theatre and will not fly on holiday unless absolutely necessary. Unfortunately my children are beyond rail.
I wonder what motivates people to become pilots these days. There isn't even the flying.
Paxing All Over The World
despegue
But I'll bet the FC who let someone up front did not expect it to be broadcast on the www? If their mgmt seek them out, they will want to thank you.
As to all the 100ml and ranting about the multi £$€ security industry? They have been autorised by politicians who are covering their @rse and, in truth, they have little choice. WE have no choice. It is the way it is. Accept or don't fly. Do I like it? No. Do I think it makes any diff? No.
If you want to blame someone, start with the American and British behaviour in the Middle East over the last 100+ years. And the meddling is not over yet.
I will say this again: Not ALL companies and flightcrew are paranoia anal retentives.
As to all the 100ml and ranting about the multi £$€ security industry? They have been autorised by politicians who are covering their @rse and, in truth, they have little choice. WE have no choice. It is the way it is. Accept or don't fly. Do I like it? No. Do I think it makes any diff? No.
If you want to blame someone, start with the American and British behaviour in the Middle East over the last 100+ years. And the meddling is not over yet.
If I were still flying I would have been in Guantanamo Bay years ago, as a result of assaulting, or at the very least insulting, any one of the Worlds' so called airport security staff.
I can barely take the airport security stuff as a passenger now, knowing that the Bad Boys will do EXACTLY what they want to do when they want to do it, and it probably won't be towards an airline again, even simple precautions to make it less than wide open will drive them towards other venues, like suitcases on the Underground - as has been mentioned - or pressure cookers on the streets of a city marathon, but .... why do the crews put up with it so meekly, the "authorities" make them jump through hoops daily, then give them a flying missile (with more than 10ml of fuel on board) to do with what they will !! Madness.
One so called security goon removed a Swiss Army knife from my Flt. Eng. - and this was even before 9/11 - and I asked if she was stealing it ? Oh no, she said, we seal it up and bring it out to the Captain of the aircraft. I am the Captain, I said, why not give it to me now ? Cannot.
Just before start up the same goon appeared on the flight deck (and they didn't make her take her shoes off before boarding) and gave me a sealed packet to sign for. In front of her I tore it open and returned it to the Flt. Eng. and told her she was
stupid.
( I subsequently had tea with the Flt. Mgr. - no choccy biscuits ! )
World's Gone Mad.
I can barely take the airport security stuff as a passenger now, knowing that the Bad Boys will do EXACTLY what they want to do when they want to do it, and it probably won't be towards an airline again, even simple precautions to make it less than wide open will drive them towards other venues, like suitcases on the Underground - as has been mentioned - or pressure cookers on the streets of a city marathon, but .... why do the crews put up with it so meekly, the "authorities" make them jump through hoops daily, then give them a flying missile (with more than 10ml of fuel on board) to do with what they will !! Madness.
One so called security goon removed a Swiss Army knife from my Flt. Eng. - and this was even before 9/11 - and I asked if she was stealing it ? Oh no, she said, we seal it up and bring it out to the Captain of the aircraft. I am the Captain, I said, why not give it to me now ? Cannot.
Just before start up the same goon appeared on the flight deck (and they didn't make her take her shoes off before boarding) and gave me a sealed packet to sign for. In front of her I tore it open and returned it to the Flt. Eng. and told her she was
stupid.( I subsequently had tea with the Flt. Mgr. - no choccy biscuits ! )
World's Gone Mad.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 5th Jul 2013 at 23:48.
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Has anyone ever been prosecuted for allowing a non approved person into the flight deck?
Custodial sentence?
I know the law can be an ass sometimes, but surely not that much of an ass?
What's the maximum penalty?
Custodial sentence?
I know the law can be an ass sometimes, but surely not that much of an ass?
What's the maximum penalty?
On relocation flights after dropping off a Bizjet I have on a number of times had a chat with the crew leaving the aircraft after shutdown while waiting for the masses to leave the aircraft as if they were on the London marathon.
Being a sceptic I always am wary of genuine reasons for such security especially when so much money is involved.
The next mass employer was going to be saving the planet and global warming until the recession reared its ugly head forcing government to put that new Multi billion£ industry on hold. Jobs for the masses taxes for the government all under the veil of saving the planet.
No doubt as brighter times arrive government will release scaremongering government sponsored research data frightening us all into forking out huge new taxes and and heralding the birth of a new massive and expensive freedom crippling industry.
Security is the same.
Last edited by Pace; 6th Jul 2013 at 09:06.
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Regrets
One of my biggest regrets is that the state of the industry, society in general, is that I will never be able to bring my son along in the cockpit to show him what I do for a living! I remember accompanying my father on numerous flights while sitting on a stack of Jepps to see over the panel. We're all guilty of allowing the PC police and "do-gooders" to ruin things for everyone!
bugged
You are so right, the intimidation leveled at crew reporting for duty has to be seen to be believed, it is as if we are entering a prison and being punished for wanting to go airside.
Why people put up with this is beyond me.
When you have served your country in the armed forces and then undertaken a career where the safety of the aircraft is your one priority, having that responsibility undermined by the security industry is nauseating.
Why people put up with this is beyond me.
When you have served your country in the armed forces and then undertaken a career where the safety of the aircraft is your one priority, having that responsibility undermined by the security industry is nauseating.
If it is company policy that there are to be no flight deck visits in flight then NO-ONE but crew members visit the flight deck. Not difficult, is it?
I once had a captain fly a non SOP approach. ISTR saying "Well YOU'RE the captain!" Thought the tvat might get the message.
Next time it was "Captain! You are high and fast on a short wet runway!"
The prat landed and burst all the maingear tyres. Still, better than going off the end.
I once had a captain fly a non SOP approach. ISTR saying "Well YOU'RE the captain!" Thought the tvat might get the message.
Next time it was "Captain! You are high and fast on a short wet runway!"
The prat landed and burst all the maingear tyres. Still, better than going off the end.
I was going off non pilot pax up for landing before 911 anyway.
Dad & son in jumpseats; about 50' on approach dad slaps me on shoulder and says "Ay, pilot dost tha know where tha is?"
You couldn't make it up.
Dad & son in jumpseats; about 50' on approach dad slaps me on shoulder and says "Ay, pilot dost tha know where tha is?"
You couldn't make it up.
