Ryaniar - 2 Tail strikes in a week
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tail strikes
I am an old fart who stopped flying jets 7 years ago so my views are a bit dated.
I flew all soughts of hardware starting with the Victor (proper plane that) and lots of time on the 737 400. I notice a gradual change over the years both flying and in the sim
We were hammered for not using the old fashioned method in the 60s 70s that is rotate to a certain small pitch angle and wait, if it gets airborne rotate further when safe. If it doesnt lift hold that low pitch angle consider firewalling and wait till the end of the concrete is nigh, only then rotate further.
All this came from the early Comet incidents of high induced drag through rotating too much or early for the actual weight/conditions.
Gradually over the years the weights became more accurate the weather better reported and the aircraft thrust more standard so the method sloooooowly changed to, await rotate call then pull at 3 per sec to about 15 nose up look over the side and see how high you are.
It works well and requires no skill or thinking if all the conditions are correct but if one is wrong you get a tail strike. Some aircraft are more vulnerable than others but all can do it if you insist
I flew all soughts of hardware starting with the Victor (proper plane that) and lots of time on the 737 400. I notice a gradual change over the years both flying and in the sim
We were hammered for not using the old fashioned method in the 60s 70s that is rotate to a certain small pitch angle and wait, if it gets airborne rotate further when safe. If it doesnt lift hold that low pitch angle consider firewalling and wait till the end of the concrete is nigh, only then rotate further.
All this came from the early Comet incidents of high induced drag through rotating too much or early for the actual weight/conditions.
Gradually over the years the weights became more accurate the weather better reported and the aircraft thrust more standard so the method sloooooowly changed to, await rotate call then pull at 3 per sec to about 15 nose up look over the side and see how high you are.
It works well and requires no skill or thinking if all the conditions are correct but if one is wrong you get a tail strike. Some aircraft are more vulnerable than others but all can do it if you insist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newcastle NI
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearly the more sectors you do as an airline the greater chance that there is of a mishap and other airline have had tail scrapes including Titan who do very few sectors and that was in a 300 using flap 1 believe
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 938
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those saying that Ryanair's tail strikes are a reflection of their high number of take-offs, I would quote the record of my own airline - easyJet. We have existed for around 16 years, and in the summer fly around 1300 flights a day. We have operated various aircraft - 737-300s, 737-700s, A319s and A320s. To my knowledge we have had one tail strike in our history - that involved an A320 on landing during a 200-hour cadet's first ever line training sector. I would therefore humbly suggest that if 2 tail strikes have occurred in one week that it may be appropriate to look for a wider range of possible explanations.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NSEW
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alexander
Incidents on occasion happen to every airline. Do you honestly believe you can compare a 16 year safety record with that of a 29 year. And your numbers are just a tad out with regards to both fleetsBBC News - Easyjet plane 'narrowly missed runway works', report finds
Last edited by antonov09; 23rd Apr 2013 at 00:02.
Modern aviation in many parts of the world is actually outstandingly safe so maybe you could argue that the number of incidents or accidents is statistically insignificant.
However I recall the Director of Safety of one large air transport undertaking (quoted I believe in a book titled "The Safe Airline" written in either the late 1970s or early 1980s) saying that in his opinion it wasn't so much the number of accidents which occur but the underlying causes underpinning those accidents or incidents and that these should be a wake up call for flight safety.
However I recall the Director of Safety of one large air transport undertaking (quoted I believe in a book titled "The Safe Airline" written in either the late 1970s or early 1980s) saying that in his opinion it wasn't so much the number of accidents which occur but the underlying causes underpinning those accidents or incidents and that these should be a wake up call for flight safety.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ...
Posts: 3,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm Easy have 214 airframes... You are quoting 3 year old figures. Plus our aircraft are used more intensively then FR's so in terms of sectors operated the difference gets even smaller.
The real argument should offcourse be that easyJet operates predominantly a319's which virtually don't have a tailstrike risk. The a320 a bit more, but the longer landing gear struts still make it uncomparable to 737-800's risk.
EasyJet's tailstrike happened after a bounced landing, I'm not sure if that should even be discussed here. Don't know of it is the only one. Who cares anyway, sjit happens.
Antonov09 the incident you refer to is not a tailstrike, so what is your point?
Yes you can in fact, especially when you realise that MOL started in 1991. I don't think that flying around in bandeirantes has any meaningful relationship to the current safety.
The real argument should offcourse be that easyJet operates predominantly a319's which virtually don't have a tailstrike risk. The a320 a bit more, but the longer landing gear struts still make it uncomparable to 737-800's risk.
EasyJet's tailstrike happened after a bounced landing, I'm not sure if that should even be discussed here. Don't know of it is the only one. Who cares anyway, sjit happens.
Antonov09 the incident you refer to is not a tailstrike, so what is your point?
Do you honestly believe you can compare a 16 year safety record with that of a 29 year.
Last edited by 737Jock; 23rd Apr 2013 at 09:00.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: L
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair have had more than 3 tailstrikes in that time. All on takeoff due to the -800 being a stretch version. Especially a problem in x-winds with spoiler deployment on over correction with aileron.
-700 Liftoff attitude Fl 5 9.1 Tailstrike at 14.7
-800 Liftoff attitude Fl 5 8.0 Tailstrike at 11.0
Not sure how the numbers compare on the a319 but just by looking at it you can see it would take more to tailstrike.
Not sure EZY and FR comparisons tell us much.
-700 Liftoff attitude Fl 5 9.1 Tailstrike at 14.7
-800 Liftoff attitude Fl 5 8.0 Tailstrike at 11.0
Not sure how the numbers compare on the a319 but just by looking at it you can see it would take more to tailstrike.
Not sure EZY and FR comparisons tell us much.
One bit of advice I was given by an experienced trainer on the type during conversion to the B737-800 was "Ten & Ten" - do not exceed 10 deg NU unless above 10 ft RA.
That said, surely the key is correct rate of rotation? (Boeing recommends between 2 and 3 deg per second - taking the average of 2.5 deg/second this means 6 seconds from zero to 15 degrees.) Also given modern flight systems is it really beyond the software guys to get the flight director to command the ideal rate?
Am retired now (thankfully) but over the years have seen quite a few rotations exceed this rate which got me wondering!
That said in the great scheme of things it seems that the odd tail strike seems to be part of the territory these days but it's what you do afterwards that counts.
That said, surely the key is correct rate of rotation? (Boeing recommends between 2 and 3 deg per second - taking the average of 2.5 deg/second this means 6 seconds from zero to 15 degrees.) Also given modern flight systems is it really beyond the software guys to get the flight director to command the ideal rate?
Am retired now (thankfully) but over the years have seen quite a few rotations exceed this rate which got me wondering!
That said in the great scheme of things it seems that the odd tail strike seems to be part of the territory these days but it's what you do afterwards that counts.
Last edited by fireflybob; 23rd Apr 2013 at 12:41.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also given modern flight systems is it really beyond the software guys to get the flight director to command the ideal rate?
I hope one does not look at the F.D. when rotating. Mk.1 eyeball outside until the horizon disappears about 9 degrees, then inside at the attitude to keep correct rate until what ever the correct target attitude is for your a/c. Climb out of FD yes, rotate on it, no. If the sharp boys could devise an FD with correct rotation rate guidance I'm not sure it would improve piloting skills: see all the threads about inability to do basics and magenta lines and FD's etc. etc.
I hope one does not look at the F.D. when rotating. Mk.1 eyeball outside until the horizon disappears about 9 degrees, then inside at the attitude to keep correct rate until what ever the correct target attitude is for your a/c. Climb out of FD yes, rotate on it, no. If the sharp boys could devise an FD with correct rotation rate guidance I'm not sure it would improve piloting skills: see all the threads about inability to do basics and magenta lines and FD's etc. etc.
I hope one does not look at the F.D. when rotating. Mk.1 eyeball outside until the horizon disappears about 9 degrees, then inside at the attitude to keep correct rate until what ever the correct target attitude is for your a/c. Climb out of FD yes, rotate on it, no. If the sharp boys could devise an FD with correct rotation rate guidance I'm not sure it would improve piloting skills: see all the threads about inability to do basics and magenta lines and FD's etc. etc.
I made my comments,tongue in cheek, cognizant of the "Children of the Magenta Line"!
Hook, line and sinker?
Indeed, Rat - the ability to count would do
Generalisations are odious at the best of times but so many pilots these days seem to be trained to fly the aircraft "by numbers" rather than getting a real feel for the machine.
Last edited by fireflybob; 23rd Apr 2013 at 17:48.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Piltdown Man
Every week they operate thousands of flights without incident so therefore I'll suggest that two/three tailstrikes in a week
Get with the program people
