Thomson pilot arrested at BHX
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At the time the Act became law the CAA issued guidance that suggested that all breathalysers issued to UK police had been tested and shown to be capable of measuring the lower level with sufficient accuracy for preliminary tests. The same guidance also said that the station evidence would normally be blood or urine although the Act does allow for breath. That may have changed since 2003 when the guidance was issued.
There are two different offences in the Act, being unfit for duty and exceeding the prescribed limit. The first is quite difficult to prove so the second is the one usually used. It is quite possible to be over the prescribed limit and committing an offence but be neither noticeably drunk or unfit for duty.
The offence is committing an Aviation Function or an activity that is ancillary to an aviation function whilst over the prescribed limit. What is an ancillary function is not totally clear but the guidance from the CAA was that it would include pre-flight briefing and post flight filing of reports in connection with the flight.
There are two different offences in the Act, being unfit for duty and exceeding the prescribed limit. The first is quite difficult to prove so the second is the one usually used. It is quite possible to be over the prescribed limit and committing an offence but be neither noticeably drunk or unfit for duty.
The offence is committing an Aviation Function or an activity that is ancillary to an aviation function whilst over the prescribed limit. What is an ancillary function is not totally clear but the guidance from the CAA was that it would include pre-flight briefing and post flight filing of reports in connection with the flight.
The "ancillary to an aviation function" bit seems a bit open to interpretation, or is it just me?
I did print up a notice a few years ago for some 757/767 refresher groundschool classes stating that a mandatory breath test was to be performed at 09:30 since the Refco was a part of pilot certification. 2 people were keen to have a quiet word before the day started. Best wind-up I've ever managed.
I did print up a notice a few years ago for some 757/767 refresher groundschool classes stating that a mandatory breath test was to be performed at 09:30 since the Refco was a part of pilot certification. 2 people were keen to have a quiet word before the day started. Best wind-up I've ever managed.
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Not so sure
Hmmmm. I'm not so sure.
I recall walking (exiting) through the staff channel at BHX with a keen FO, and being asked for our passes by a Bobby with no Airport ID. My mate asked "what's this all about"? & was threatened by the afore mentioned Bobby. Someone had entered the Security Perimiter and set alight to a Police helecopter. "Can't be too sure, Sir". Why go outside in the cold when crews with valid ID's might be an easy target?
I recall walking (exiting) through the staff channel at BHX with a keen FO, and being asked for our passes by a Bobby with no Airport ID. My mate asked "what's this all about"? & was threatened by the afore mentioned Bobby. Someone had entered the Security Perimiter and set alight to a Police helecopter. "Can't be too sure, Sir". Why go outside in the cold when crews with valid ID's might be an easy target?
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Look at it from a Police point of view.
Maybe there are officers with IDs airside also looking for the offender but that this officer has been placed to check anyone who hasnt obviously got a pass - maybe because its inside a jacket or its turned around by accident or, crucially, that they dont have one.
Also, think how easy it would be to get a generic Pilot outfit. And think how easy it would be for someone dressed like a pilot with a hi-vis to just walk around the ramp without being stopped.
Because you can guarentee that if someone is going to go to the lengths to enter the CP of BHX to attack the Copper Chopper then they will have taken measures to not get caught going out to, or coming back from the aircraft - you dont just breach a CP fence and attack a helicopter as a crime of opportunity done on the spur of the moment.
Maybe there are officers with IDs airside also looking for the offender but that this officer has been placed to check anyone who hasnt obviously got a pass - maybe because its inside a jacket or its turned around by accident or, crucially, that they dont have one.
Also, think how easy it would be to get a generic Pilot outfit. And think how easy it would be for someone dressed like a pilot with a hi-vis to just walk around the ramp without being stopped.
Because you can guarentee that if someone is going to go to the lengths to enter the CP of BHX to attack the Copper Chopper then they will have taken measures to not get caught going out to, or coming back from the aircraft - you dont just breach a CP fence and attack a helicopter as a crime of opportunity done on the spur of the moment.
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Sections 92 - 94 of the Rail & Transport Safety Act 2003 cover aviation functions and are pretty much all encompassing.
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003
There isn't a lot you can do related to any aviation work which does not consitute an offence.
Some hand-held breathalysers are now calibrated such that, on start up, it asks whether the 'subject' is involved in aviation activities and if 'Yes' is selected it defaults to the far lower maximum alcohol limits prescribed for aviation activities.
Each and every individual is different and having administered stacks of breath tests in a previous life, I can assure you that the 1 1/2 pint rule-of-thumb relied on as sacrosanct by some is in fact complete
- I have known people fail a breathalyser after 1/2 pint or one whisky and another pass (the evidential test) after 5 pints plus two glasses of wine. Nevertheless, the majority of persons would be hard pressed to pass an aviation prescribed breath limit of 9 mg/100 ml (compared to 35mg/100ml for driving) after even a small amount of alcohol.
I was stopped by the police on my way FROM work (August 2007) and they still applied the "Aviation = YES" option. Whilst I am sure that no Court would have convicted had I failed the aviation limits but passed the driving limits on my way home after duty had finished, the traffic cop concerned was 100% adamant that the aviation limits still applied. I had not drunk anything so there was no point making anything of it.
What is interesting in S94 are the activities and ancillary activities which would constitute an offence if over the limit. Seems to be a wide net!
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003
There isn't a lot you can do related to any aviation work which does not consitute an offence.
Some hand-held breathalysers are now calibrated such that, on start up, it asks whether the 'subject' is involved in aviation activities and if 'Yes' is selected it defaults to the far lower maximum alcohol limits prescribed for aviation activities.
Each and every individual is different and having administered stacks of breath tests in a previous life, I can assure you that the 1 1/2 pint rule-of-thumb relied on as sacrosanct by some is in fact complete
- I have known people fail a breathalyser after 1/2 pint or one whisky and another pass (the evidential test) after 5 pints plus two glasses of wine. Nevertheless, the majority of persons would be hard pressed to pass an aviation prescribed breath limit of 9 mg/100 ml (compared to 35mg/100ml for driving) after even a small amount of alcohol.I was stopped by the police on my way FROM work (August 2007) and they still applied the "Aviation = YES" option. Whilst I am sure that no Court would have convicted had I failed the aviation limits but passed the driving limits on my way home after duty had finished, the traffic cop concerned was 100% adamant that the aviation limits still applied. I had not drunk anything so there was no point making anything of it.
What is interesting in S94 are the activities and ancillary activities which would constitute an offence if over the limit. Seems to be a wide net!
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Trouble is a question of privilege and envy. At my local airport, there is a grudging...'off somewhere nice are we sir....' [= I hate you] from the brown and blue army, who,alas realise that in their lives, this is all there is. They wear hate and envy on their arms like a black armband of death. A p**s poor service compared to the americans who seem to be able to address you correctly and offer some offer of respect...but as long as you offer it to them.
I hear that journalists from April 6th onwards will be required to sit exams in the UK towards licenciate membership of the Royal College of Truthful and Polite Journalists. There will be annual renewals of this privilege along with clearance to report the accurate thruth for a further 6 months. Wonderful stuff.
I hear that journalists from April 6th onwards will be required to sit exams in the UK towards licenciate membership of the Royal College of Truthful and Polite Journalists. There will be annual renewals of this privilege along with clearance to report the accurate thruth for a further 6 months. Wonderful stuff.
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Koi
You are spot on, it is an envy thing with security, if I go through the security checks as a passenger giving no clue that I am in the business I get no real problem fron security, in uniform it is a whole different and unpleasant ball game.
2Close A bit disturbing about the policeman who wanted to apply the aviation acohol limit to you after you had finished work and on your way home, like you I don't think that this would have got past the CPS.
2Close A bit disturbing about the policeman who wanted to apply the aviation acohol limit to you after you had finished work and on your way home, like you I don't think that this would have got past the CPS.
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A bit disturbing about the policeman who wanted to apply the aviation acohol limit to you after you had finished work and on your way home, like you I don't think that this would have got past the CPS.
Last edited by helen-damnation; 14th Mar 2013 at 20:26.
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Only had positive experiences from police in an aviation sitch, very helpful ejecting dodgy ne'r do wells. As to security screening, NCL and Man make it painful because they haven't worked out you can be professional without being overly officious. Went through LHR this week and they were all positive, polite and just got on with their jobs. On the other side of the coin I have seen a fair few crews fail to recognise that security have a job to do and act like t**ts so I can understand why we take some flak in the other direction and guys get sussed for being under the influence.
Last edited by Schnowzer; 15th Mar 2013 at 05:27.
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Variable Standards
Having been in civ av for 25 years, RAF prior, and BMIs security manager for some years I was always struck by how different security standards and sensible behaviour were at some airports and how some individuals felt empowered by their periferal connection with security to oppress other workers.
I recall a security person at Teeside repeatedly saying to crew "here's another one for the full body masage" prior to a very intrusive search and Manchester security staff trying hard to impress me with their power but not their effeciency. Other airports seemed to welcome their function to support safe flight by contributing to the overall effort.
It was noticeable that some smaller airports performed vastly better than the majors at detecting and dealing with problems and so were more effective but managed to avoid aggression. Securityt at Wick for instance was excellent, nothing got past them but they were always pleasant about it. I will never forget one of the baggage security ladies asking my wife if it was OK to search in my boxers, the reply that there was a big supprise waiting caused a smile all round
Their was usually a large difference between the UK and foreign airports attitude to crew. In Germany I was never frisked, they checked my badge and waved me through which I thought was a bit lax but they were superb at preventing drunks or troublesome pax from boarding. Often the first we heard about a problem was when the load sheet needed to be changed because " we rejected a passenger at the gate"
I was never sure how much the split between the DFT and the CAA over security matters reduced effectiveness
I recall a security person at Teeside repeatedly saying to crew "here's another one for the full body masage" prior to a very intrusive search and Manchester security staff trying hard to impress me with their power but not their effeciency. Other airports seemed to welcome their function to support safe flight by contributing to the overall effort.
It was noticeable that some smaller airports performed vastly better than the majors at detecting and dealing with problems and so were more effective but managed to avoid aggression. Securityt at Wick for instance was excellent, nothing got past them but they were always pleasant about it. I will never forget one of the baggage security ladies asking my wife if it was OK to search in my boxers, the reply that there was a big supprise waiting caused a smile all round
Their was usually a large difference between the UK and foreign airports attitude to crew. In Germany I was never frisked, they checked my badge and waved me through which I thought was a bit lax but they were superb at preventing drunks or troublesome pax from boarding. Often the first we heard about a problem was when the load sheet needed to be changed because " we rejected a passenger at the gate"
I was never sure how much the split between the DFT and the CAA over security matters reduced effectiveness
Last edited by Tinribs; 20th Mar 2013 at 09:19.
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Thomson pilot arrested at BHX
The brethalyser is for screening and the suspect has to be arrested if they fail, for a trip to the custody suite where the evidential test is done- you get to choose breath or blood. This will state the actual amount of alcohol and therefore is the evidence. If the officer has grounds to believe someone is drunk (alcohol on breath etc.), they can arrest on suspicion.
At the end of the day, it seems they had grounds to arrest but not to prosecute.
Plus- if you are sober, you won't have a problem.
At the end of the day, it seems they had grounds to arrest but not to prosecute.
Plus- if you are sober, you won't have a problem.
I realize that this is not an option with reference to breathalyzer tests with Pilots (I have had a couple myself) but as far as driving is concerned there is a blood test option in many states in the US.
In fact, in Florida the advice given to motorists concerned they may be over the limit when stopped by the Police is 'if you don't know, don't blow'
As mentioned, it is your option to have a blood test, if you are borderline close to the limit by the time they get you to a hospital or clinic and find someone to administer a blood test you may very well be legal.
Not endorsing drunk driving at, just thought I would point this out. Is this an option for a motorist in the UK ?
In fact, in Florida the advice given to motorists concerned they may be over the limit when stopped by the Police is 'if you don't know, don't blow'
As mentioned, it is your option to have a blood test, if you are borderline close to the limit by the time they get you to a hospital or clinic and find someone to administer a blood test you may very well be legal.
Not endorsing drunk driving at, just thought I would point this out. Is this an option for a motorist in the UK ?
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No unless there are medical grounds. Refusing the breath test at the police station would be classed as an offence in its self and would lead to a ban anyway probably more severe just for good luck.
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Well, I read that and it doesn't specify you have to submit to a breathalyzer test, just to submit to a test of some kind.
Just that you have to supply breath, blood or urine.
The implication is there is a choice.
Just that you have to supply breath, blood or urine.
The implication is there is a choice.
Last edited by stilton; 31st Mar 2013 at 07:59.
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Beware of forming opinion on the law from internet guides rather than the actual legislation. In the UK the legislation is the Road Traffic Act 1998 with amendments contained within the Railways and Transport Safety 2003. The legislation has two sections which cover the requirement to submit to testing.
The first is the requirement to co-operate with any one or more preliminary tests administered to the person by a constable and a person commits an offence if without reasonable excuse he fails to co-operate with a preliminary test.
The second concerns specimens where a constable may require the person to provide two specimens of breath for analysis by means of a device of a type approved by the Secretary of State, or to provide a specimen of blood or urine for a laboratory test. There is a choice but it is the constable's choice although there are other sections which place limitations on that choice. A person who, without reasonable excuse, fails to provide a specimen when required to do so is guilty of an offence as long as the constable warns them that a failure to provide it may render them liable to prosecution when they make the request.
The first is the requirement to co-operate with any one or more preliminary tests administered to the person by a constable and a person commits an offence if without reasonable excuse he fails to co-operate with a preliminary test.
The second concerns specimens where a constable may require the person to provide two specimens of breath for analysis by means of a device of a type approved by the Secretary of State, or to provide a specimen of blood or urine for a laboratory test. There is a choice but it is the constable's choice although there are other sections which place limitations on that choice. A person who, without reasonable excuse, fails to provide a specimen when required to do so is guilty of an offence as long as the constable warns them that a failure to provide it may render them liable to prosecution when they make the request.
