Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Easy Incident..?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Easy Incident..?

Old 22nd Apr 2002, 19:38
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Fraggle Rock
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question Easy Incident..?

Sounded like a bit of an altercation last night between ATC and 2 orange 737s last night near LPL.

One of them admitted level busting by 250ft, ATC said it was more.

Much debate on the RT over who was at fault and who was filing what.

Sounded bloody busy at the time !
Gladfa is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2002, 20:16
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Less than 300' is not a bust. So do you mean busting THAT by 250', i.e. departing from assigned level by 550'?

I have to say that I like it when things like level busts occur (without further incident) because it means that we can all learn something new about how incidents arise, and we can all (hopefully) plug one more hole in the swiss cheese.
HugMonster is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2002, 21:07
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Fraggle Rock
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Off the top of my head, there was more discussion over what was being filed as they both had TCAS RAs as a result of the level "bust" or "excursion." (I think ATC claimed it was 400').

Agree totally with you that things are learned from such situations, which is why my curiosity prompted me to post the original message.
Gladfa is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2002, 08:22
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Holland
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Nice one for the CAA level busting commision but not really an incident if it was 250. If it was so busy they should have handeled it after the flight..
Dutchie is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2002, 09:03
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,918
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Food for thought:-

Scenario - base of controlled airspace 3000'. IFR traffic instructed to fly at 3500' (ATC are required to keep such flights 500' above the base), but descends to 3250'.
Another aircraft in the vicinity, ostensibly flying at 2900', outside and below CAS, inadvertently climbs to 3150'. Vertical separation 100' - but by definition neither aircraft is deemed to have 'bust its level' - that's OK then !!
spekesoftly is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2002, 10:01
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Fraggle Rock
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Spekesoftly

Food for thought indeed.

Another one I have trouble with ex-LPL is the heading 180 climbing to 3,000'. In the event we can't get 2-way when transferred to Manchester, we're heading for alot of busy FIR, not least Tilstock Para drop zone
Gladfa is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2002, 10:12
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Fraggle Rock
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Still thinking about what I just posted......

180 degrees to 3,000' is a non-standard given to LPL NANTIs when MAN is on easterlies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all IFR deps off LPL contact the same MACC sector (128.05).

If this is so, would a left turn out off 09, as for a WAL SID, then a turn to NANTI or HON when clear of MAN inbounds be safer, with only a couple of minute's loss of expedition incurred by the extra track mileage ?

Another question too, if I may !?

My Met. studies are recent enough to recall the difference between inland and coastal winds.

However, as per MAN and their preferred runway policy (i.e. westerlies), could there not be a policy whereby MAN and LPL have an agreed runway policy, eg when MAN on westerlies, LPL do also, subject to an agreed wind component table.?

Last edited by Gladfa; 24th Apr 2002 at 10:21.
Gladfa is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2002, 10:13
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
speke, that's not a level bust, since outside CAS there is no assignment of level. That would come under the "unauthorised incursion into CAS" category, for which various people would probably want a little chat with the guy!
HugMonster is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2002, 08:51
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: CYQT
Age: 54
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hug, you can allocate levels outside CAS under RAS, which could make life interesting in this hypothetical scenario.
squibbler is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2002, 09:06
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: england
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Gladfa:
The runway in use policy has been muted before, but as you rightly say there can be sig differences in the winds even though the airports are only 20+ miles apart. Remember also there is 30deg difference between the respective rwy directions. For example if the wind is 150/15, EGCC would use 24 as its a x-wind and EGGP would use 09.
shakinghead is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2002, 13:11
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,918
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Gladfa,

Agreed that 180/3000' has almost become 'SOP' for the NANTI 2V, and I do sympathise with your concerns. I also appreciate that the a/c kit has been programmed, that you brief for EFATO etc, and so any late change from the SID is less than ideal. Ultimately of course, for any of the above reasons, a pilot could refuse a 'tactical solution' to expedite departure. Trouble is, as I'm sure you know, the ensuing delay due to traffic density could be considerable. So ATC try to do their best, with a revised clearance, to get you airborne quickly and safely.

A left turn from 09 to NANTI/HON ....... I have seen it done, but the initial reaction from the pilot was perhaps predictable! ("Confirm left turn" etc.) It can also involve as many co-ordination and confliction problems (09 inbounds ?) as it tries to solve, and may very well add more than just a few track miles. Generally not in favour, but we try to remain flexible.

Last edited by spekesoftly; 24th Apr 2002 at 14:36.
spekesoftly is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.