ATR72 Incident at FCO

[Vc10Tail]

corporate logo cover up

That is normal for airlines to preserve their corporate image especially in this case here Alitalia and not carpatair that is exposed.Am sure there are security procedures that
ensure no tampering with evidence..

[Lurking_SLF]

The quick paint job is pretty normal..
Check out Crash 1 or Crash 2 or Crash 3

Which came out on top of a quick Google search.

I think the thoroughness of the job is impressive though!!

[Blind Squirrel]

Are the sustained injuries to PAX and crew known?

The only ones giving grounds for concern were the passenger with the broken femur (not the FO as initially reported), and the FA with the spinal trauma. Both were said by the Italian papers to be doing well in hospital. Always hard to say with back injuries, though: effects can linger for years afterwards -- or, worse, not begin to manifest themselves until years afterwards.

[hetfield]

@Lurking SLF

Do you mind to publish the dates of mentioned accidents?

[Tiennetti]

Only just briefly seen and read this thread. In case it helps, and before they become difficult to obtain, here are the half-hourly weather observations (METARS) for the period around the accident. The ASN report (link courtesy of Glonass, post #5, above) is unable to pinpoint the actual landing time, but it was some time between 2015 LT and 2115 LT (1915Z - 2015Z).

...

We don't yet know the landing time, or if it was off the first approach.
...

FlightRadar doesn't shows the ATR, but if you look at it, there is almost a continuous flow up to 19:32 and then at 19:33 the frst go-around by an AZA E170 followed with the interruption of all approaches

So I would say that 19:32 is a good estimated landing time

[Aerostar6]

Maybe they've already sold it to a cargo mob?

[Spacepope]

Not too terribly difficult.

Pic 1 is from Aug 20, 2007 in Okinawa (a fire not a crash) China Airlines Flight 120 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pic 2 is from the crash on November 4, 1993, though I don't know when the paint was applied. China Airlines Flight 605 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pic 3 is another not-crash, from November 6, 1984. From the caption of the photo, the gear collapsed overnight and the livery was obscured by morning. Very quick.

[119.4]

Deja Vu

Kulverstukas I was pretty certain the paint job was covered (!) way back in post #17 onwards..

[JammedStab]

Originally Posted by Vc10Tail

THanks Chris for confirmig my views and adding further insights. I too ws no
convinced about the airport closure due to gusting winds and know that the PIc is entitled
To attempt the approach down to minimums,go around and hold or divert . Atr42-5 fcom says 45kt as max x wind dry runway and assumed it wud be close to that figure or minus 10kts for the 72 which I only did sim trng in 2008? So what s the uper limit for gust compared
to steady wind? X wind limit for CM2 in my airline is 15kt...ridiculous! I wonder if slight differential power is used (more on upwind side) to counter weather cocking can helop in stabilizing the flight tragectory as the ATR rock n rolls a lot on crosswinds..admitedly non standard but it is a matter of grabbing the bull by the horns when th going gets to ifugh. I like to keep the yaw damper on till 100ft RA and then have te freedom of rudder authorit to de crab while side slipping for a upwind wing down touch down..carrying power till touch down if momentum not constraining and flaring around 10ft max pitch 2.
5 degrees (avoid floating and getting bullied by the crosswind)..taking partiocular care with tail strike which the ATR72 is prone.I wonder if Flap 15 approach. Would handle better in such winds(though tail strike probability would be higher but it would allow for a higher approach speed which could counter the x wind additional to being armed for a
higher go around speed should it be required? Definitely a CM1 excercise!

It seemed to me that because there was no direct connection between rudder pedals and nosewheel steering on the ATR.....my first few strong crosswind landings had a tendency to find me behind the aircraft when it came to rudder inputs resulting in a not so straight landing. I was worried but after talking to a more experienced guy, he said that this was not abnormal for a newbie. Soon after, I found I no longer had this problem. But I wonder if it could crop up as a problem in an extreme case such as this Rome accident may have been.

Did anyone else experience this? Maybe it depends on your previous type flown.

[Domi]

French BEA talks about destabilized short final, 3 bounces and touchdown on nose gear which collapsed, then veering off the runway. Sounds like EI-SLM in Shannon...

[keitaidenwa]

The were in such a hurry to cover up the alitalia connection that the windows got painted white as well, but somehow they had time to leave the non-Italian registration mark and Romanian flag intact.

This way of operating - finding a low quality operator to do your flights in your livery - and then shedding the connection as soon as something goes wrong - should be considered frauding your customers.

People bough tickets to "Continental 3407" flight but died abroad "Colgan Air 3407". Clever PR yes...

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

French BEA talks about destabilized short final, 3 bounces and touchdown on nose gear which collapsed, then veering off the runway. Sounds like EI-SLM in Shannon...

Sounds like bounced landing is the favourite way to write off an ATR. See the list below, which is not exhaustive...

ASN Aircraft accident Arospatiale/Aeritalia ATR-72-212 N438AT San Juan-Luis Munoz Marin International Airport (SJU)
ASN Aircraft accident ATR-72-212A VT-JCE Indore Airport (IDR)
ASN Aircraft accident ATR-72-201 HL5229 Jeju (Cheju) International Airport (CJU)
ASN Aircraft accident ATR-72-212A VT-DKC Bangalore-Hindustan Airport (BLR)
BREAKING NEWS: Jet Airways ATR72 nose wheel collapses at Ahmedabad, airport shut down - Bangalore Aviation

[Dg800]

The were in such a hurry to cover up the alitalia connection that the windows got painted white as well, but somehow they had time to leave the non-Italian registration mark and Romanian flag intact.

There we go again! Registration markings (this includes the national flag, when mandated) are a legal requirement and cannot be removed or tampered with for any reason. To do so would mean risking criminal prosecution. Other markings such as an airline's logo are merely cosmetic and can be disposed of at will.
Unlike some uninformed posters to this board, the people who performed the paint job knew very well (or had been previously properly instructed by someone knowledgeable) which parts they could paint over and which areas were off-limits.

This way of operating - finding a low quality operator to do your flights in your livery - and then shedding the connection as soon as something goes wrong - should be considered frauding your customers.

Who's shedding what? If anything, Alitalia's management is strenuously defending their outsourcing decision in the national press, to the point of incidentally repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.

[Vc10Tail]

jammedstab steering issue at touchdown

On the steering issue there are sops that suggest fornarrow runways go straight for the nosewheel steering after nosewheel touchdown.perhaps such technique might be helpful to practice on a severe gusting crosswind in a sim.haven't flown ATR a number of years now.the atr nise wheel has a tendency to straighten fairly easily provided not excessive rudder cycling that would induce uncomfortable oscilations below 70kts.Aileron input to counter upwind lifting on touchdown is liable to raise spoiler and the differential drag added o the wether cocking effect could lead to a nice tango in the cockpit!

[Never Fretter]

The accident report is now out and here is a short summary
ANSV Highlight Procedures & HF After ATR72 Landing Accident

[hoss183]

But what were a PAX and FA doing out of their seats (or possibly just unbuckled) during a landing?

[pattern_is_full]

But what were a PAX and FA doing out of their seats (or possibly just unbuckled) during a landing?

What makes you believe this was the case? I don't see any reference to anyone being out of their seats or unbuckled, in the report.
______

A chain of errors and misjudgements, but ultimately the captain botched the flare, (possibly due to poor depth/height perception in the dark) - and you just can't do that in an AT. (Well, you can't do it in most aircraft - see SWA-La Guardia - but the AT seems especially prone and vulnerable)

[hoss183]

Among the injured, the most serious case is that of a female flight attendant, a foreign national, who was probably standing at the time of the accident and sustained injuries to her spinal column.

Because i read it. Ok its from the press, but the injuries do seem to suggest that that was the case.

[JammedStab]

Could someone please download the report and then copy and paste the very last two pages of the report which are in english. These are the comments from the Romanians stating that the maximum crosswind limits published by ATR are too high and should be lowered. Several other recent related accidents are listed.

Thanks

[Never Fretter]

Could someone please download the report and then copy and paste the very last two pages of the report which are in English. These are the comments from the Romanians stating that the maximum crosswind limits published by ATR are too high and should be lowered. Several other recent related accidents are listed.

The key text from the Romanian letter is here, with links to more details on those other accidents:

The accident report is now out and here is a short summary
ANSV Highlight Procedures & HF After ATR72 Landing Accident