Helicopter Crash Central London
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SLF and Proud
Firstly may I ask what your experience and qualifications are in flying to express your opinions?
I stick by every word I have posted!
Firstly let me make it clear I am NOT a Helicopter Pilot I fly as a Captain on Business Jets.
Prior to that I have a lot of time on multi engine pistons.
There is a massive difference between the Private pilot who chooses to spend his hard earned cash and flies for pleasure and the Pilot who has to be in outer Mongolia at 8 am in the middle of winter.
Obviously the safest flying is what I do now! Take off, fly a SID in CAS under radar Control the whole way, get vectored onto an ILS and land and then follow controlled directions till you pick up the follow me vehicle and park!
That is the safest way by far (again a have to flight)
The other flying which I no longer do involved twin pistons to multi destinations in Northern and southern Ireland and Scotland sometimes OCAS and sometimes into places where there is no ILS.
That took a certain amount of creative flying!!! again a HAVE TO FLIGHT
HELICOPTERS!!! I would imagine that a lot is OCAS with very experienced have to pilots and a certain amount of creative flying!
The Helicopter pilot has another string to his bow in the sense that unlike the fixed wing pilot he can always find a hole in the clouds if above cloud and land in a suitable field or do the same if flying under cloud.
His other option with plenty of fuel is to go somewhere else but he too is a HAS TO PILOT!
So I stick by every word and many will know what i am talking about. As I have been so forthcoming I would like to know your own back ground and experience especially with your polite comment above
Joe Bloggs PPL will pull back the curtains and go back to sleep!
There are those who choose too and those who have to
There are those who choose too and those who have to
I stick by every word I have posted!
Firstly let me make it clear I am NOT a Helicopter Pilot I fly as a Captain on Business Jets.
Prior to that I have a lot of time on multi engine pistons.
There is a massive difference between the Private pilot who chooses to spend his hard earned cash and flies for pleasure and the Pilot who has to be in outer Mongolia at 8 am in the middle of winter.
Obviously the safest flying is what I do now! Take off, fly a SID in CAS under radar Control the whole way, get vectored onto an ILS and land and then follow controlled directions till you pick up the follow me vehicle and park!
That is the safest way by far (again a have to flight)
The other flying which I no longer do involved twin pistons to multi destinations in Northern and southern Ireland and Scotland sometimes OCAS and sometimes into places where there is no ILS.
That took a certain amount of creative flying!!! again a HAVE TO FLIGHT
HELICOPTERS!!! I would imagine that a lot is OCAS with very experienced have to pilots and a certain amount of creative flying!
The Helicopter pilot has another string to his bow in the sense that unlike the fixed wing pilot he can always find a hole in the clouds if above cloud and land in a suitable field or do the same if flying under cloud.
His other option with plenty of fuel is to go somewhere else but he too is a HAS TO PILOT!
I.e., Pace's mantra is a load of old 
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Jan 2013 at 16:54.
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The pilot did not have to fly. He chose to. I make no comment on whether or not that was a wise judgement.
the only things that mandate a 'have to' are breathing, putting a bit of food down your gullet and some water occasionally and sleep.
Why do I suspect that if someone had heard a builder say in humour "nah, no reason to stick a light on the end of that mate, sticks out like a sore thumb"
you'd be calling for heads to roll...
you are missing the point.. neither pace, nor Shy Torque, nor FL nor i have called for 'heads to roll'.
as far as i am aware none of the above have apportioned *blame* to anyone at this time, unlike those that seem intent on apportioning *blame* to PB, no matter if the investigation has not been completed.
that is the point.
Last edited by stuckgear; 24th Jan 2013 at 11:21.
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Barnes alone created the situation that placed him on a collision course with the Crane
I believe, portrays an arrogant, overconfident pilot, contemptuous of the known weather conditions and the repeatedly expressed concerns of his client, and who was recklessly negligent in his decision making and flying.
NB * no differentiation of male / female pilots 'he' used for brevity.
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Originally Posted by pace
That took a certain amount of creative flying!!! again a HAVE TO FLIGHT
So now you do 'Safe' flying, but I guess with that attitude, the first time someone leans on you , you'll be happy to bust a minima, use reserve fuel, ignore airspace VMC/ IMC requirements? because obviously you HAVE to because you've got a job to do.
For gods sake grow a pair and start acting like a professional
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Pace's motto that it's excusable for professional pilots to fly VFR in inappropriate conditions because they "have to", is bollocks.
what do you deem as inappropriate ?
from the special report:
At 0751 hrs, Thames Radar broadcast London City Airport ATIS2 information ‘J’ which reported a visibility of 700 m, a Runway Visual Range (RVR) of 900 m, freezing fog and broken cloud with a base 100 ft above the airport. Thirty seconds later, the pilot of G-CRST asked to route back to Redhill Aerodrome via the London Eye and received the reply:
"ROCKET 2 APPROVED VIA THE LONDON EYE NOT ABOVE ALTITUDE 1,500 FEET VFR IF YOU CAN OR SPECIAL VFR, QNH 1012".
The pilot replied:
"YEAH, WE CAN, 1012 AND NOT ABOVE 1500, VFR OR SPECIAL VFR ROCKET 2".
G-CRST climbed to 1,500 ft for the transit. At 0753 hrs, the controller asked:
"ROCKET 2 DO YOU HAVE VMC OR WOULD YOU LIKE AN IFR TRANSIT?"
The pilot replied:
"I HAVE GOOD VMC ON TOP HERE, THAT’S FINE, ROCKET 2".
At 0755 hrs, G-CRST was put under radar control as it entered the London CTR. One minute later, the pilot asked:
"ROCKET 2, IS BATTERSEA OPEN DO YOU KNOW?"
After being told that London Heliport was open, the pilot said:
"IF I COULD HEAD TO BATTERSEA THAT WOULD BE VERY USEFUL".
The controller replied:
"I’LL JUST HAVE A CHAT WITH THEM, SEE WHAT THEIR CLOUD IS LOOKING LIKE"
At 0757 hrs, G-CRST was abeam the London Eye at 1,500 ft and the pilot said:
"ROCKET 2, I CAN ACTUALLY SEE VAUXHALL, IF I COULD MAYBE HEAD DOWN TO H3… H43 SORRY"
The ATC controller replied:
"ROCKET 2, YOU CAN HOLD ON THE RIVER FOR THE MINUTE BETWEEN VAUXHALL AND WESTMINSTER BRIDGES AND I’LL CALL YOU BACK".
G-CRST was flying south parallel to the River Thames and, as it passed Westminster Bridge, began to descend. At 0758 hrs, G-CRST was approaching the north side of the river, 0.5 nm west of Vauxhall Bridge. The controller said:
"ROCKET 2 BATTERSEA ARE JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THEY CAN ACCEPT THE DIVERSION"
The pilot acknowledged, after which the controller continued:
"AND YOU CAN MAKE IT QUITE A WIDE HOLD, YOU CAN GO AS FAR AS LONDON BRIDGE"
The helicopter crossed the north bank of the Thames at 1,000 ft heading south-west and began a right turn through north onto a south-easterly heading which took it back over the middle of the river. It was by now level at approximately 800 ft and altered course to follow the line of the river east towards Vauxhall Bridge.
At 0759:10 hrs, the ATC controller said:
"ROCKET 2 YEAH BATTERSEA DIVERSION APPROVED YOU’RE CLEARED TO BATTERSEA".
The pilot replied:
"LOVELY THANKS ROCKET 2".
The ATC controller continued:
"ROCKET 2 CONTACT BATTERSEA ONE TWO TWO DECIMAL NINER".
The pilot replied:
"TWO TWO NINE, THANKS A LOT".
This exchange ended at 0759:18 hrs when G-CRST was approximately 150 m south-west of Vauxhall Bridge.
Immediately afterwards the helicopter began to turn right. At 0759:25 hrs it struck a crane on the south side of the river 275 m from the south-west end of Vauxhall Bridge.
"ROCKET 2 APPROVED VIA THE LONDON EYE NOT ABOVE ALTITUDE 1,500 FEET VFR IF YOU CAN OR SPECIAL VFR, QNH 1012".
The pilot replied:
"YEAH, WE CAN, 1012 AND NOT ABOVE 1500, VFR OR SPECIAL VFR ROCKET 2".
G-CRST climbed to 1,500 ft for the transit. At 0753 hrs, the controller asked:
"ROCKET 2 DO YOU HAVE VMC OR WOULD YOU LIKE AN IFR TRANSIT?"
The pilot replied:
"I HAVE GOOD VMC ON TOP HERE, THAT’S FINE, ROCKET 2".
At 0755 hrs, G-CRST was put under radar control as it entered the London CTR. One minute later, the pilot asked:
"ROCKET 2, IS BATTERSEA OPEN DO YOU KNOW?"
After being told that London Heliport was open, the pilot said:
"IF I COULD HEAD TO BATTERSEA THAT WOULD BE VERY USEFUL".
The controller replied:
"I’LL JUST HAVE A CHAT WITH THEM, SEE WHAT THEIR CLOUD IS LOOKING LIKE"
At 0757 hrs, G-CRST was abeam the London Eye at 1,500 ft and the pilot said:
"ROCKET 2, I CAN ACTUALLY SEE VAUXHALL, IF I COULD MAYBE HEAD DOWN TO H3… H43 SORRY"
The ATC controller replied:
"ROCKET 2, YOU CAN HOLD ON THE RIVER FOR THE MINUTE BETWEEN VAUXHALL AND WESTMINSTER BRIDGES AND I’LL CALL YOU BACK".
G-CRST was flying south parallel to the River Thames and, as it passed Westminster Bridge, began to descend. At 0758 hrs, G-CRST was approaching the north side of the river, 0.5 nm west of Vauxhall Bridge. The controller said:
"ROCKET 2 BATTERSEA ARE JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THEY CAN ACCEPT THE DIVERSION"
The pilot acknowledged, after which the controller continued:
"AND YOU CAN MAKE IT QUITE A WIDE HOLD, YOU CAN GO AS FAR AS LONDON BRIDGE"
The helicopter crossed the north bank of the Thames at 1,000 ft heading south-west and began a right turn through north onto a south-easterly heading which took it back over the middle of the river. It was by now level at approximately 800 ft and altered course to follow the line of the river east towards Vauxhall Bridge.
At 0759:10 hrs, the ATC controller said:
"ROCKET 2 YEAH BATTERSEA DIVERSION APPROVED YOU’RE CLEARED TO BATTERSEA".
The pilot replied:
"LOVELY THANKS ROCKET 2".
The ATC controller continued:
"ROCKET 2 CONTACT BATTERSEA ONE TWO TWO DECIMAL NINER".
The pilot replied:
"TWO TWO NINE, THANKS A LOT".
This exchange ended at 0759:18 hrs when G-CRST was approximately 150 m south-west of Vauxhall Bridge.
Immediately afterwards the helicopter began to turn right. At 0759:25 hrs it struck a crane on the south side of the river 275 m from the south-west end of Vauxhall Bridge.
Last edited by stuckgear; 23rd Jan 2013 at 17:03.
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So now you do 'Safe' flying, but I guess with that attitude, the first time someone leans on you , you'll be happy to bust a minima, use reserve fuel, ignore airspace VMC/ IMC requirements? because obviously you HAVE to because you've got a job to do
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Jan 2013 at 17:07.
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You are the only one talking bollocks from probably armchair and nil experience
Like I said, grow a pair, and stop trying to justify piss poor decision making, and illegal flights. (I'm not making any comment on this particular incident, merely your repeated posts justifying a terrible attitude to flight safety).
Originally Posted by heli-cal
...contemptuous of... ...the repeatedly expressed concerns of his client...
Last edited by Ambient Sheep; 23rd Jan 2013 at 17:14.
Whilst the evidence we have so far is circumstantial are we not jumping the gun a bit here?
There is always the possibility of pilot incapacitation or mechanical failure to consider, probably amongst others.
Interestingly enough I had a similar conversation with a PPL holder at the local airfield today at their cafe.
He related his story of getting off track one day in (for him) marginal weather and how if it hadn't been for a radar service he might have come to grief.
As an experienced (now almost retired) professional pilot (and instructor) in several different theatres of operation (but not helo) I then attempted to politely educate him that the pilots flying helos around London were highly professional aviators and that an inflight diversion in an area they are very familiar with (and the ATC services available) would be a "walk in the park".
Yes there is always potential for human error but I think it is far too early to damn the pilot before we know all the facts.
There is always the possibility of pilot incapacitation or mechanical failure to consider, probably amongst others.
Interestingly enough I had a similar conversation with a PPL holder at the local airfield today at their cafe.
He related his story of getting off track one day in (for him) marginal weather and how if it hadn't been for a radar service he might have come to grief.
As an experienced (now almost retired) professional pilot (and instructor) in several different theatres of operation (but not helo) I then attempted to politely educate him that the pilots flying helos around London were highly professional aviators and that an inflight diversion in an area they are very familiar with (and the ATC services available) would be a "walk in the park".
Yes there is always potential for human error but I think it is far too early to damn the pilot before we know all the facts.
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SLF whatever
You seem uninclined to reveal your experience so I presume armchair?
Had to rather than choose is figurative speech meaning a PPL has a choice to select his day for flying in comparison to a working pilot who will have more pressure to complete the job to a schedule.
He will have a lot more experience in operating in conditions the fair weather PPL will not!
That does not make him a risk taker or cowboy pilot! sadly as stated accidents happen across the board from airline pilots to the OCAS Helicopter commercial pilot!
You seem uninclined to reveal your experience so I presume armchair?
Had to rather than choose is figurative speech meaning a PPL has a choice to select his day for flying in comparison to a working pilot who will have more pressure to complete the job to a schedule.
He will have a lot more experience in operating in conditions the fair weather PPL will not!
That does not make him a risk taker or cowboy pilot! sadly as stated accidents happen across the board from airline pilots to the OCAS Helicopter commercial pilot!
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Jan 2013 at 17:25.
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It seems that the professional heli pilots who regularly fly the London heli routes have ducked out of this disgrace of a thread - and it's hardly surprising!
Arguments, name calling and conspiracy theories being discussed by people who are not even heli-pilots for goodness sake!
90% of you really sound like school children - and quite what makes any of you believe you are, or possibly ever could be, professional aviators is a mystery to me.
Arguments, name calling and conspiracy theories being discussed by people who are not even heli-pilots for goodness sake!
90% of you really sound like school children - and quite what makes any of you believe you are, or possibly ever could be, professional aviators is a mystery to me.
Note the AAIB reports the top of the building and crane were not visible from the ground. They likely have several witness statements to that effect.
Possibilities:
Possibilities:
- The turn radius took him into cloud and he maintained the turn to return to VFR.
- There was a cloud layer with top below the jib, but the pilot did not see the jib in time.
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eltonioni
I don’t doubt you know the current lighting requirements. I pointed out that the discussion at that time was about whether they should be made more stringent in order to improve flight safety.
I agree with those who think they should be; you and others may disagree.
We'll probably never know if more effective lighting would have prevented this accident. However, I do wonder whether, if the crane (incl the jib) had been better lit, the pilot would have seen the raised jib in time to avoid it.
At that life or death moment, whether the pilot should or should not have been there is irrelevant. If he was alive, the CAA might have taken action against him; better that than the loss of two lives.
How about me?
Since you ask, and only because you ask -
PPL/A like you (and Pittsextra, the equally incessant poster on this topic) + PPL/H (Jetranger & Gazelle ratings).
I know the relevant area of London well, having flown the heli routes many times and driven along the River morning and night virtually every working day for almost 40 years. (I drove past the north side of Vauxhall Bridge about 15 minutes after the accident.)
Formerly a barrister specialising in aviation (predominantly fatal accidents) and criminal cases.
I am actively involved in the work of the Guild of Air Pilots which, for obvious reasons, takes a keen interest in all aspects of flight safety and a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society.
I hope that summary is sufficient for your purposes. (Whatever they are.
)
I don't need a lawyer to tell me about putting stuff on buildings because I happen to be a property development professional with a PPL - how about you?
I agree with those who think they should be; you and others may disagree.
We'll probably never know if more effective lighting would have prevented this accident. However, I do wonder whether, if the crane (incl the jib) had been better lit, the pilot would have seen the raised jib in time to avoid it.
At that life or death moment, whether the pilot should or should not have been there is irrelevant. If he was alive, the CAA might have taken action against him; better that than the loss of two lives.
How about me?
Since you ask, and only because you ask -
PPL/A like you (and Pittsextra, the equally incessant poster on this topic) + PPL/H (Jetranger & Gazelle ratings).
I know the relevant area of London well, having flown the heli routes many times and driven along the River morning and night virtually every working day for almost 40 years. (I drove past the north side of Vauxhall Bridge about 15 minutes after the accident.)
Formerly a barrister specialising in aviation (predominantly fatal accidents) and criminal cases.
I am actively involved in the work of the Guild of Air Pilots which, for obvious reasons, takes a keen interest in all aspects of flight safety and a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society.
I hope that summary is sufficient for your purposes. (Whatever they are.
)
