Another 787 electrical/smoke incident (on ground)
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glad rag
You beat me to it. The casual fit of the cabling, insuls, and loosely insulated coaxials is not confidence inspiring. I have seen residential knob and tube more squared away...
After two foot long flames, forty minutes of fire, and copious smoke, the EE bay is that clean? It looks sanitized, post fire. The inspector is inspecting the area in front of the battery, not the battery station. The battery's install site is around to the left, and empty. I am surprised the photo was released, if it was thought to be calming, or to minimize the look of damage, I would have to disagree.
You beat me to it. The casual fit of the cabling, insuls, and loosely insulated coaxials is not confidence inspiring. I have seen residential knob and tube more squared away...
After two foot long flames, forty minutes of fire, and copious smoke, the EE bay is that clean? It looks sanitized, post fire. The inspector is inspecting the area in front of the battery, not the battery station. The battery's install site is around to the left, and empty. I am surprised the photo was released, if it was thought to be calming, or to minimize the look of damage, I would have to disagree.
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@ Lyman
Well lets wait and see.....but it's the little things, like the screen bond/earth to the left going to the frame, crimp pointing horizontally-no drip loop, this stuff is BASIC basic wiring installation, standards are standards.
Seen it before in my old career, it can point to unskilled/minimally trained labor constructing the barrels, poor [or under pressure QA] signing it off....
And there's more, even in that lo res.
Hope they get all this sorted. Competition improves the breed.
Seen it before in my old career, it can point to unskilled/minimally trained labor constructing the barrels, poor [or under pressure QA] signing it off....
And there's more, even in that lo res.
Hope they get all this sorted. Competition improves the breed.
It would be interesting to know what the adjacent systems ‘boxes’ control – elect distribution / power management, etc, and thus what potential there is for collateral damage from a battery fire ?
Does the elect bay have fire suppression or just containment for ETOPS ?
Even with containment, the assumption that other services will remain available for long periods may be challenged with the evidence from this and previous incidents.
Does the elect bay have fire suppression or just containment for ETOPS ?
Even with containment, the assumption that other services will remain available for long periods may be challenged with the evidence from this and previous incidents.
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The ground which caught glad rags eye caught mine. It appears to be a graft, or, occupies the insulated portion of the conductors. It attaches at the aluminum frame rail. Following the rail to its terminus at the bulkhead, we see evidence of fire or arcing. If the ground becomes hot (+/-) then the possibilty for dead short or polarity x suggests a source of lost power, or arcing/heat/ignition? Wherever that rail travels elsewhere? Shouldn't that suggest the need for isolation?
Some day some knucklehead is going to use those red taped connectors for a step.
Some day some knucklehead is going to use those red taped connectors for a step.
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An A330 was completely destroyed by fire in her early days. It has nothing to do with the aircraft type. The 787 has outperformed the A380 so far, regarding technical issues.....
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Boeing makes fine airplanes and this one will be fine too. The fire was associated with the APU battery. They will fix the problem. I have had electrical smoke in flight in a 757 so know how it instantly gets your attention.
The Swissair crash near Halifax happened about a year before my situation. I shut down non essential busses for galley, etc immediately before the checklist. Two weeks later our airline changed the checklist to do what I did.
I always considered if necessary shut all generators off if the smoke is uncontrollable because if you can see out the window in VMC conditions you don't need anything. You just want to survive so SOP's can be discussed later at your hearing.
The Swissair crash near Halifax happened about a year before my situation. I shut down non essential busses for galley, etc immediately before the checklist. Two weeks later our airline changed the checklist to do what I did.
I always considered if necessary shut all generators off if the smoke is uncontrollable because if you can see out the window in VMC conditions you don't need anything. You just want to survive so SOP's can be discussed later at your hearing.
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Self-Vulcanizing Taped Connectors
Some day some knucklehead is going to use those red taped connectors for a step.
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Do you mean the one where they (Douglas) didn't bother calculating what an explosive decompression would do to the floor (and the control lines running under it) with the volume of air inside a widebody?
There's a forest just outside Paris where you can kick over the topsoil and uncover small bits of DC-10 and even tinier fragments of the people who were on that DC-10 because Douglas didn't do their homework. And even then, having been called on not doing their homework, were given a mulligan by the FAA, promised they'd fix the problem and didn't.
Say what you will about Airbus and Boeing, but any mistakes they've made in the last four decades pale in comparison with that.
There's a forest just outside Paris where you can kick over the topsoil and uncover small bits of DC-10 and even tinier fragments of the people who were on that DC-10 because Douglas didn't do their homework. And even then, having been called on not doing their homework, were given a mulligan by the FAA, promised they'd fix the problem and didn't.
Say what you will about Airbus and Boeing, but any mistakes they've made in the last four decades pale in comparison with that.
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dozzy wannabe...glad you have to go back so far to find problems with douglas.
B737...flips upside down and kills everyone due to rudder problems
AB320...settles into trees with top notch test pilots at controls
AB330 lost while pilots can't recover from stall
B767 thrust reverser extends in flight...all lost
B747 improper repair, vertical fin blows off killing over 500 people
Sure there are problems with douglas...but the inherent strength in the single digit (douglas) is wonderful...esp when compared with other planes.
I seem to recall Gen Eisenhower giving credit to the Douglas C47/DC3 or Dakota as helping to win WW2...and that the Dakota was the first plane in the Queen's Jubilee flyover...An American plane.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
B737...flips upside down and kills everyone due to rudder problems
AB320...settles into trees with top notch test pilots at controls
AB330 lost while pilots can't recover from stall
B767 thrust reverser extends in flight...all lost
B747 improper repair, vertical fin blows off killing over 500 people
Sure there are problems with douglas...but the inherent strength in the single digit (douglas) is wonderful...esp when compared with other planes.
I seem to recall Gen Eisenhower giving credit to the Douglas C47/DC3 or Dakota as helping to win WW2...and that the Dakota was the first plane in the Queen's Jubilee flyover...An American plane.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Firstly, I note you go back further to find something particularly good made by Douglas...
B737...flips upside down and kills everyone due to rudder problems
AB320...settles into trees with top notch test pilots at controls
AB330 lost while pilots can't recover from stall
B767 thrust reverser extends in flight...all lost
B747 improper repair, vertical fin blows off killing over 500 people
Sure there are problems with douglas...but the inherent strength in the single digit (douglas) is wonderful...esp when compared with other planes.
I seem to recall Gen Eisenhower giving credit to the Douglas C47/DC3 or Dakota as helping to win WW2
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 10th Jan 2013 at 01:42.
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And here we go!
Oh dear, Dozy's here and this thread is now guaranteed to go on for another five pages.
Dozy will give you all the answers, in his opinion, - yours don't matter.
Time to move on ?
Dozy will give you all the answers, in his opinion, - yours don't matter.
Time to move on ?
Fire is not a metric that screams..?
From Reuters:
This Sinnett chappie (reportedly the B787 Chief Engineer) doesn't exactly inspire confidence with his comment that fails to acknowledge that a lithium ion Battery fire is a metric that should be screaming at him and that Boeing does indeed have a critical safety of flight issue with the B787.
Sinnett sounds to me more like a political spin doctor than an engineer.
Hopefully, the real Boeing engineers working for him will provide the corrective action to return the B787 to a safe air transport vehicle and bolster Boeing's reputation for safety before corporate profit.
(Reuters) - Boeing Co rolled out the Dreamliner's chief engineer to try to quell concerns about the new jet following three mishaps in as many days, including an electrical fire that caused severe damage to a plane.
At a news conference on Wednesday, the engineer, Mike Sinnett, defended the 787, the world's first plastic plane, and said its problem rates are at about the same level as Boeing's successful 777 jet.
Relatively few technical problems prevent 787s from leaving a gate within 15 minutes of scheduled departure time, he said. "We're in the high 90 percents," he said. "We're right where the 777 program was" at this stage.
The prevalence of more significant issues, such as a battery fire, is in the same order of magnitude as previous programs, he added. "There's no metrics that are screaming at me that we've got a problem."
Sinnett explained in detail how the lithium ion battery system that burned on Monday was designed by his team to be safe and prevent smoke getting into the cabin in the event of a fire during a flight. "I am 100 percent convinced that the airplane is safe to fly," he said.
Asked why smoke entered the cabin on Monday, Sinnett said the plane lacked cabin pressure to expel smoke because it was on the ground. In that scenario, "We expect that there would be sufficient time to evacuate the plane safely," Sinnett said.
At a news conference on Wednesday, the engineer, Mike Sinnett, defended the 787, the world's first plastic plane, and said its problem rates are at about the same level as Boeing's successful 777 jet.
Relatively few technical problems prevent 787s from leaving a gate within 15 minutes of scheduled departure time, he said. "We're in the high 90 percents," he said. "We're right where the 777 program was" at this stage.
The prevalence of more significant issues, such as a battery fire, is in the same order of magnitude as previous programs, he added. "There's no metrics that are screaming at me that we've got a problem."
Sinnett explained in detail how the lithium ion battery system that burned on Monday was designed by his team to be safe and prevent smoke getting into the cabin in the event of a fire during a flight. "I am 100 percent convinced that the airplane is safe to fly," he said.
Asked why smoke entered the cabin on Monday, Sinnett said the plane lacked cabin pressure to expel smoke because it was on the ground. In that scenario, "We expect that there would be sufficient time to evacuate the plane safely," Sinnett said.
Sinnett sounds to me more like a political spin doctor than an engineer.
Hopefully, the real Boeing engineers working for him will provide the corrective action to return the B787 to a safe air transport vehicle and bolster Boeing's reputation for safety before corporate profit.
Last edited by FlexibleResponse; 10th Jan 2013 at 10:58.
Sinnett explained in detail how the lithium ion battery system that burned on Monday was designed by his team to be safe and prevent smoke getting into the cabin in the event of a fire during a flight.
As opposed, presumably, to those battery systems that are designed to be unsafe and allow smoke to get into the cabin in the event of a fire during a flight ?
Asked why smoke entered the cabin on Monday, Sinnett said the plane lacked cabin pressure to expel smoke because it was on the ground.
Apparently Mr Sinnett is 787 Chief Project Engineer.
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The prevalence of more significant issues, such as a battery fire, is in the same order of magnitude as previous programs, he added. "There's no metrics that are screaming at me that we've got a problem."
"Prevalence" =
commonness, frequency, regularity, currency, universality, ubiquity, common occurrence, pervasiveness, extensiveness, widespread presence, rampancy, rifeness, profusion, predominance, hold, rule, sway, mastery, primacy, ascendancy, preponderance, popularity
Now, forgetting for the moment engine-related issues, because those are not in the control of an airframer, I cannot remember any previous Boeing programme that has had such serious "issues" as this one.
Right at this moment I would walk rather than risk being on board a 787 in flight.
And STILL no-one can indicate to me exactly how this aircraft can qualify under ETOPS...
Disclaimer, not a pilot, no aptitude.
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Fate is the Hunter remains one of my favorite aviation books almost 50 years after I first read it as a kid. And fate has thrown the aviation world a big bone here.... this battery fire occurred on the ground and not at FL410 over the Aleutian Islands or off Kamchatka. And even with this fire on the ground, it was quickly discovered and dealt with before the entire aircraft could be destroyed, greatly hampering the process of discovering the cause.
If the aviation world and Boeing ignore the gift that fate has presented to it because of the massive financial implications and repercussions, that will be folly to the highest degree.
If I heard today that the 787 fleet was grounded until a solution was found, I would understand perfectly. But at a minimum, these airplanes should be routed so that immediate landings can be made in the event of another fire. As SR111 showed and the AC DC-9 at CVG, even that may not be enough when your ship is burning in flight!
There are only a couple of dozen 787s flying today, and at least two of them have had a fire in the aft electronics bay. Fate has been kind... the test ship was able to land in Texas back in 2010 (crew evacuated with slides) and the JAL ship was between flights and on the ground.
We cannot count on fate being so kind the next time!
If the aviation world and Boeing ignore the gift that fate has presented to it because of the massive financial implications and repercussions, that will be folly to the highest degree.
If I heard today that the 787 fleet was grounded until a solution was found, I would understand perfectly. But at a minimum, these airplanes should be routed so that immediate landings can be made in the event of another fire. As SR111 showed and the AC DC-9 at CVG, even that may not be enough when your ship is burning in flight!
There are only a couple of dozen 787s flying today, and at least two of them have had a fire in the aft electronics bay. Fate has been kind... the test ship was able to land in Texas back in 2010 (crew evacuated with slides) and the JAL ship was between flights and on the ground.
We cannot count on fate being so kind the next time!
I do agree, RobertS. I think.
Just one small correction:
There are actually 49 in service, in 8 airlines. It's estimated they're doing 439 flights a week.
And of course Boeing is planning to deliver a lot more, as we speak.
A very interesting situation developing.
airsound
Just one small correction:
There are only a couple of dozen 787s flying today,
And of course Boeing is planning to deliver a lot more, as we speak.
A very interesting situation developing.
airsound
Last edited by airsound; 10th Jan 2013 at 13:21. Reason: speling