Aircraft Crash in Moscow
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Yes, I am tempted to revise my estimate of 100 knots, upward. It appears, with some visualization, that the 204 might even be at "flying speed", though insufficient for rotation. The overrun drops, but there appears to be an aerodynamic component to its last 200 meters before hitting the elevated roadway.
Certainly the data will show this, if true.
Still, it is doubtful to fault the airfield. A combination of several unfortunate circumstances....
Certainly the data will show this, if true.
Still, it is doubtful to fault the airfield. A combination of several unfortunate circumstances....
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More then two sources confirms already brakes malfunctuion. At forumavia smb PsychoKif claims that he has CCTV overlooks rwy. He saw that touchdown was ok and first couple of seconds it ssems that aircraft begin normal deceleration (there was no smoke from the wheels, but it was far and not very clear) but then it seems that there was no brake power and a/c run till the end of the rwy.
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That would be the definition of "in the corner". No braking, (or poor) and a running out of runway.
Quickly, run off the end at speed, or try to re launch? May God prevent my placement in a similar corner...
Quickly, run off the end at speed, or try to re launch? May God prevent my placement in a similar corner...
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Rosaviation sent today urgent addition to flight manual of 204/214.
"Att! In case of reverse not switching on after levers in position "small reverse" (reverse idle?) (no green light "small reverse") IMMEDIATELY move levers fully back (reverse off). Do not use reverse while on rwy."
"Att! In case of reverse not switching on after levers in position "small reverse" (reverse idle?) (no green light "small reverse") IMMEDIATELY move levers fully back (reverse off). Do not use reverse while on rwy."
Last edited by Kulverstukas; 31st Dec 2012 at 15:29.
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Quickly, run off the end at speed, or try to re launch?
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Kulverstukas Rosaviation sent today urgent addition to flight manual of 204/214.
"Att! In case of reverse not switching on after levers in position "small reverse" (reverse idle?) (no green light "small reverse") IMMEDIATELY move levers fully back (reverse off). Do not use reverse while on rwy."
Yes, because if thrust is increased without reverse, one has an a/c that wants to accelerate, even if it is not the wish of the crew.
"Att! In case of reverse not switching on after levers in position "small reverse" (reverse idle?) (no green light "small reverse") IMMEDIATELY move levers fully back (reverse off). Do not use reverse while on rwy."
Yes, because if thrust is increased without reverse, one has an a/c that wants to accelerate, even if it is not the wish of the crew.
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Yes, because if thrust is increased without reverse, one has an a/c that wants to accelerate, even if it is not the wish of the crew.
In the company that I last flew for, we had two wet-leased TU-204s for a couple of years. One was RA-registered with Russian engines and the other was SU-registered with RB211s.
The crews were usually Ukrainian.
The astonishing thing was that they never ever ever went tech.
The only time was when the RB211 version had to have a windscreen change in the middle of the winter.
What I can tell you is that the absolute minimum crew was at least 5 and was usually around 11 (which is quite interesting when the aircraft concerned was a freighter)!!!!!!!!
The crews were usually Ukrainian.
The astonishing thing was that they never ever ever went tech.
The only time was when the RB211 version had to have a windscreen change in the middle of the winter.
What I can tell you is that the absolute minimum crew was at least 5 and was usually around 11 (which is quite interesting when the aircraft concerned was a freighter)!!!!!!!!
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Yes, thank you, Christodoulidesd for your post number 187, showing that eleven minute video of the TU204, showing instrumentation, handling, CRM....and communication.
I was hoping for someone to comment sensibly on the standards of equipment and operation displayed.
I was hoping for someone to comment sensibly on the standards of equipment and operation displayed.
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Possible they initiated a very late attempt to GA?
Once on the ground and by the time you realize something is not working it it is usually too late to do G/A, you would have to reset flaps, make sure all flight controls/TH are in stowed position, etc, it takes time while you are eating precious runway. It is much better to run off the runway at say 80 kts than attempt a late G/A and run off the runway at say 130 kts. Rule of a thumb in aviation is to reduce your energy once on the ground, there were many well publicized accidents (mostly in GA) when pilots attempted ill thought late go-around with horrific results. For example in 2008 there were an accident with a business jet attempting such late go-around and it is very educational what NTSB said in its final report:
“If the captain had continued the landing and accepted the possibility of overrunning the runway instead of attempting to execute a go-around late in the landing roll, the accident most likely would have been prevented or the severity reduced because the airplane would have come to rest within the runway safety area,” according to the findings.
Last edited by olasek; 31st Dec 2012 at 20:45.
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EASA did that with Qantas32. AAIB did that with BA038.
If you have evidence that people will die unless an EAD is let, you let the EAD.
no? Saving ass better than saving face....
If you have evidence that people will die unless an EAD is let, you let the EAD.
no? Saving ass better than saving face....
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Is there a system that avails brakes independently of WOW? These guys did not need reverse, but they needed brakes. Is there a 'brake at your risk' switch that a pilot can use when he knows he is on the deck, and it's brakes or 'dive into the Cuisinart'?
A switch that can kill, and no resort if it fubars? Grease it and make it 'ok'?
Really? Must be some fairly dear grease....
A switch that can kill, and no resort if it fubars? Grease it and make it 'ok'?
Really? Must be some fairly dear grease....
Is there a system that avails brakes independently of WOW?
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Is there a system that avails brakes independently of WOW
I think we saw an incident with a 37 of Southwest at IAH with anti-skid deactivated and pilot was early on the brakes causing an MLG tyre/tire fire.
So it appears one switch to activate brakes, lift dumper/spoilers, and unlatch T/R's and whatever else.
One would estimate there should be some additional redundancy as well as alternate means to activate the systems.
Greasing a switch just does not seem to be the answer to a design problem.
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Hasn't stopped a couple of 777 crews trying to do exactly that recently
Edit to add.: I dunno if a failure mode like a certain menmber of the A320 family somewhere in Italy with total brake computers hickup is possible on the T204
Last edited by Capt. Inop; 1st Jan 2013 at 02:29.
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I am curious to know what the training says to do in a TU-204 as well. Turning off the anti-skid system or reverting to emergency braking are options in some other types of airplanes when normal braking doesn't work as expected.
- autobrake off (commander)
- selection of reserve brake system (commander)
- both pilots on the pedals for max braking effort
- use the parking brake handle (commander)
- pull the CBs for emergency and normal brake pressure regulation (flight engineer)
This doesn't tell you which of those actions will be effective with a WOW malfunction though.
However, it doesn't make much sense for the wheel brake logic to inhibit all function in absense of WOW signal, because landing with wheels already locked is much less of a problem than not having any brakes at all and also the autobrake and NWS functions need other input from the wheels, which could be used to compare with the presense of WOW signal, such as wheel speed data. If all of the wheels are turning at about the same speed, it's a sure sign weight is indeed on the wheels.
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The really big question here is how did the airplane end up where it did?
I'm not ready to write it up as pilot failure alone (yet)
And that's why i'm wondering how many similarities system wise this airplane has compared to the A320 family.
I'm not ready to write it up as pilot failure alone (yet)
And that's why i'm wondering how many similarities system wise this airplane has compared to the A320 family.
Originally Posted by Capt Inop
keeping the donks at idle reverse until you know that the brakes will bite will save your day when you go balls to the walls for a GA.