Dutch TV reports on 'Ryanair pilots denominated alarm over safety'
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BOAC,
Yes you can burn up all cont and extra fuel enroute.
If you then encounter a delay it is diversion time or commit to destination (in exceptional circumstances).
To be exact: Our cont fuel is the statistical delay encountered on previous "whole" flights. Not just arrival delays.
Yes you can burn up all cont and extra fuel enroute.
If you then encounter a delay it is diversion time or commit to destination (in exceptional circumstances).
To be exact: Our cont fuel is the statistical delay encountered on previous "whole" flights. Not just arrival delays.
Last edited by sleeper; 30th Dec 2012 at 15:02.
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The second episode of KRO Reporter which will be on air this Thursday will show the financial and contractual situation of Ryanair pilots.
Also the Fuel League will be mentioned.
The makers of the program spoke to several current Ryanair pilots (not just the four shown on tv), ex Ryanair pilots and have insight in contracts and memo's.
Also the Fuel League will be mentioned.
The makers of the program spoke to several current Ryanair pilots (not just the four shown on tv), ex Ryanair pilots and have insight in contracts and memo's.
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BOAC
All three were caught by an apparently incompetent Lan Chile crew on the way to the div
All three were caught by an apparently incompetent Lan Chile crew on the way to the div
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Regarding the Dutch TV program: what a sad state of journalism.
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B738driver,
100% agree with you and with the fact that this TV program is trying to address issues that go well beyond the fuel emergencies.
It is obvious to me , as a professional pilot , that something wrong is going on in that airline and it is also quite evident that some people have an interest in hijacking the thread in order to divert the attention away from those issues.
100% agree with you and with the fact that this TV program is trying to address issues that go well beyond the fuel emergencies.
It is obvious to me , as a professional pilot , that something wrong is going on in that airline and it is also quite evident that some people have an interest in hijacking the thread in order to divert the attention away from those issues.
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I do agree that the tv-show (can't call it anything else) was highlighting other issues. But those extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The only evidence offered were those mayday calls. You can't base a show which alludes that FR-pilots do not take enough fuel, on an incident in which ALL involved pilots took on far more fuel than legally required!
During the show it was repeated many times that passengers don't realise that the cheap tickets FR offers are a direct result of pilots not taking enough fuel. Which is a very dubious claim
And no, I do not work for FR!
During the show it was repeated many times that passengers don't realise that the cheap tickets FR offers are a direct result of pilots not taking enough fuel. Which is a very dubious claim
And no, I do not work for FR!
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Wasn't the LAN engine failure due to "fuel starvation"? This seems to be an extremely biased documentary to say the least.
What these captains are basically saying is that they're willing to take-off with less then the fuel they're comfortable with, risking there own life and nearly 200 others because they're afraid they won't get their new base or a promotion or worst case get asked to leave. This says as much about them as it does about the bad culture within Ryanair.
What these captains are basically saying is that they're willing to take-off with less then the fuel they're comfortable with, risking there own life and nearly 200 others because they're afraid they won't get their new base or a promotion or worst case get asked to leave. This says as much about them as it does about the bad culture within Ryanair.
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grafity did you read what B738driver just said about getting back on topic?!
There is already another long and extensive thread regarding the RYR fuel Maydays as stated.
The programme talked about a culture of fear within Ryanair, not just about fuel There is a second show discussing other aspects of working for Ryanair to be shown on Thursday..
There is already another long and extensive thread regarding the RYR fuel Maydays as stated.
The programme talked about a culture of fear within Ryanair, not just about fuel There is a second show discussing other aspects of working for Ryanair to be shown on Thursday..
Last edited by Aldente; 31st Dec 2012 at 06:07.
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not just about fuel There is a second show discussing other aspects of working for Ryanair to be shown on Thursday
I don't think you would get away with that in the UK since the CAA have insisted (rightly IMO) that holding fuel is added to trip. Then 'contingency' is added.
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What these captains are basically saying is that they're willing to take-off with less then the fuel they're comfortable with, risking there own life and nearly 200 others because they're afraid they won't get their new base or a promotion or worst case get asked to leave. This says as much about them as it does about the bad culture within Ryanair
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BOAC, how is KLM's 90 cont or 99 cont similar to BA's?
Clearly KLM takes more then 5% based on statistics, they add this delay fuel on top of the minimum contingency of 5 minutes or 5% of trip fuel. In accordance with normal EUops rules.
Regarding BA taking less then 5% of trip fuel... my ops manual states this about reduced contingency
Does BA do this on a regular basis? And how does taking less then the minimum 5minutes /5% of trip involve statistics?
Contingency fuel:
How can anybody statistically determine unforseen conditions I wonder? Or statistically determine deviations from planned operating conditions?
The 16 minutes is not a percentage of the flightplan fuel.
It is the average (90 % or 99%) of the delays in the previous months.
So in a month with lots of delays due to wx for instance, the cont fuel will reflect those delays and can even be 30 min.
In slow months, with no delays, it goes down to the minimum of 5 minutes.
It is the average (90 % or 99%) of the delays in the previous months.
So in a month with lots of delays due to wx for instance, the cont fuel will reflect those delays and can even be 30 min.
In slow months, with no delays, it goes down to the minimum of 5 minutes.
In my day, BA went completely 'statistical' on contingency and were often around 3% - with plogs worked on destination and arrival time. I do not recall them ever exceeding 5%.
Regarding BA taking less then 5% of trip fuel... my ops manual states this about reduced contingency
Reduction of Contingency Fuel by the Use of 3% ERA
Not less than 3% or 5 minutes, which ever is greater, of the planned Trip Fuel or in the event of in flight replanning, 3% of the Trip Fuel for the remainder of the flight, provided that an en-route alternate is available in accordance with the diagram below. The en-route alternate should be located within a circle having a radius equal to 20% of the total flight plan distance, the centre of which lies on the planned route at a distance from the destination of 25% of the total flight plan distance, or at 20% of the total flight plan distance plus 50 NM, whichever is the greater; as illustrated below.
Not less than 3% or 5 minutes, which ever is greater, of the planned Trip Fuel or in the event of in flight replanning, 3% of the Trip Fuel for the remainder of the flight, provided that an en-route alternate is available in accordance with the diagram below. The en-route alternate should be located within a circle having a radius equal to 20% of the total flight plan distance, the centre of which lies on the planned route at a distance from the destination of 25% of the total flight plan distance, or at 20% of the total flight plan distance plus 50 NM, whichever is the greater; as illustrated below.
Contingency fuel:
Fuel to cover deviations from the planned operating conditions such as unfavourable variations in cruise altitude or track, deviations from the forecast wind values or any other unforeseen adverse circumstances.
Contingency Fuel shall be the higher of (1) or (2) below:
5% of the planned Trip Fuel or in the event of in-flight replanning, 5% of the Trip Fuel for the remainder of the flight.
an amount of fuel to fly for 5 minutes at holding speed at 1500 ft above the destination aerodrome in standard conditions.
Contingency Fuel shall be the higher of (1) or (2) below:
5% of the planned Trip Fuel or in the event of in-flight replanning, 5% of the Trip Fuel for the remainder of the flight.
an amount of fuel to fly for 5 minutes at holding speed at 1500 ft above the destination aerodrome in standard conditions.
Last edited by 737Jock; 31st Dec 2012 at 10:18.
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Spanish protectionism, Dutch biased media, 4 mentally unstable individuals claiming to be FR pilots, a second show on the way that will surely be full of false claims......poor Ryanair, everything and everyone seem to be against their highly legal and morally unquestionable way of doing business.
The third reich as well as The Roman Empire have all fallen just like any other regime is bound to end if based on fear and threats.
History repeats itself, Ryanair fans would be better off learning from it.
The third reich as well as The Roman Empire have all fallen just like any other regime is bound to end if based on fear and threats.
History repeats itself, Ryanair fans would be better off learning from it.
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Aldente I was making a point about the interview with the Spanish ATCO, he say's in the interview that the LAN called a mayday "not because of fuel shortage, but because of engine failure." A bit disingenuous if the reason the engine shut down was due to fuel starvation.
@23:50 in this clip KRO Reporter: Mayday Mayday - Uitzending Gemist
The documentary goes out of it's way to attack Ryanair as the only bad guy in this event. From what I can see the LAN was the nearest miss on the night and they played it down as a none event. They've also made heroes out of Spanish ATC who seem to have been a major contributor to the whole mess. I'm not saying Ryanair haven't questions to answer from this incident, but if these guys are going to make a documentary they should at least make some effort to keep a bit of integrity to their argument. From what I understood of this documentary even Michael Moore would be cringing.
If you read my post you will also notice that most of it is talking about the culture within Ryanair, but maybe you didn't like the fact that I talked about the culture of these individual Captains within the airline. They're supposed to be commanders of the aircraft, if they can justify extra fuel then take it and make the justification if need be, if you can't justify it, then why are you taking it? If you can justify and don't take then maybe you should resign yourself to the right seat.
I have to say that having followed the ECA for the last 6 months or so they come across to me as an embarrassment to the profession. I suspect that they are a major motivator behind this documentary. I would love to see better terms and conditions for flight crew but these guys are just going about it the wrong way. They had a number of baseless claims on facebook following this Madrid incident and their Cpt. Dead Tired campaign just makes Pilots look incompetent and spoiled. Stop trying bull**** the public that Ryanair aren't safe, when in fact they are one of the safest. There seems to be plenty of ways to hit them where it hurts. Contract employment for one, start lobbying EASA and National Authorities to improve conditions for pilots. The states are doing it, 1500hours minimums for F/O's would reduce the pool of wannabes fairly rapidly and force better conditions.
@23:50 in this clip KRO Reporter: Mayday Mayday - Uitzending Gemist
The documentary goes out of it's way to attack Ryanair as the only bad guy in this event. From what I can see the LAN was the nearest miss on the night and they played it down as a none event. They've also made heroes out of Spanish ATC who seem to have been a major contributor to the whole mess. I'm not saying Ryanair haven't questions to answer from this incident, but if these guys are going to make a documentary they should at least make some effort to keep a bit of integrity to their argument. From what I understood of this documentary even Michael Moore would be cringing.
If you read my post you will also notice that most of it is talking about the culture within Ryanair, but maybe you didn't like the fact that I talked about the culture of these individual Captains within the airline. They're supposed to be commanders of the aircraft, if they can justify extra fuel then take it and make the justification if need be, if you can't justify it, then why are you taking it? If you can justify and don't take then maybe you should resign yourself to the right seat.
I have to say that having followed the ECA for the last 6 months or so they come across to me as an embarrassment to the profession. I suspect that they are a major motivator behind this documentary. I would love to see better terms and conditions for flight crew but these guys are just going about it the wrong way. They had a number of baseless claims on facebook following this Madrid incident and their Cpt. Dead Tired campaign just makes Pilots look incompetent and spoiled. Stop trying bull**** the public that Ryanair aren't safe, when in fact they are one of the safest. There seems to be plenty of ways to hit them where it hurts. Contract employment for one, start lobbying EASA and National Authorities to improve conditions for pilots. The states are doing it, 1500hours minimums for F/O's would reduce the pool of wannabes fairly rapidly and force better conditions.
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International version of programme now available on the KRO website, with English subtitles.
Reporter - Mayday Mayday - International version
Part two on Thursday in which other topics will be discussed.
Reporter - Mayday Mayday - International version
Part two on Thursday in which other topics will be discussed.
What if Ryanair are using frugal dispatchers / ops who factor in the standard passenger weight in their load sheet based on 3rd world countries instead of bulging western ones resulting in a lighter payload hence fuel calculation and also forget to model in some of the heavier hand luggage that their passengers carry nowadays.
