Dutch TV reports on 'Ryanair pilots denominated alarm over safety'
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Good grief will you guys ever give this non stop Ryanair bashing a rest its just non stop, anything published you are looking for a way to get at them.
Ryanair is a very safe airline, it seems to sicken most of the posters on this forum, you would be thrilled to bits if they had a serious incident.
Ryanair is a very safe airline, it seems to sicken most of the posters on this forum, you would be thrilled to bits if they had a serious incident.
If you bothered to actually read posts you would have noticed that other than asking questions about how pay and rostering works, purely out of curiosity as it's good to know how what contracts are like in other carriers, I have NEVER mentioned Ryanair in this thread, never mind "bashing" them For your illiterate information, the quote of mine you went to all the trouble to cut and paste was to correct a post made about it being "too late" for litigation relating to a previous settlement. In fact that's often not the case and I even provided an example that wasn't even aviation related! FFS!!
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Dear Marco
Your first programme was based on no evidence whatsoever, other than false claims made by
unidentified persons in darkened rooms precisely so their false claims could not be
tested. This is a new low for so called "investigative journalism".
We note that your two new claims are equally untrue and unsupported by any factual
evidence whatsoever. We now answer these false claims as follows:
1. Since Ryanair pilots can only fly a max of 900 hours per year (an average of just
18 hours per week, compared to most peoples' 40 hours per week), any Ryanair pilots
(regardless of whether they are direct employees or contractors) that miss a flight due to
illness can easily replace those flights before the end of the year and so no pilots lose
any pay for being "unfit to fly". Ryanair also requires pilots to declare if they feel
unfit to fly in which case they will be replaced by other standby pilots and such
certifications happen routinely.
Please ask your anonymous contributors to provide evidence of their flight hours in the
last 12 months which will confirm that they suffered no loss of pay as a result of being
unfit to fly at any time. These claims are simply false which is why you have provided no
evidence to support them.
2. Your first programme was completely untrue. Ryanair's fuel policy allows pilots
to take as much fuel as they want, and neither you nor your anonymous contributors
provided any evidence to the contrary, or any evidence of this so called "pressure".
The only pressure placed on Ryanair pilots is to fly safely, which is why each Ryanair
captain has full discretion on how much fuel they take.
You have also been misled about Ryanair's fuel league tables which rank only fuel burn per
month and not fuel loads per flight. The sole purpose of these tables is to encourage
pilots to fly safely (i.e. at the correct heights and speeds), they do not rank fuel loads
or extra fuel taken.
As these false claims demonstrate, your first programme and your second programme lack any
evidence whatsoever and are based solely on false claims made by anonymous contributors
who are unwilling to identify themselves precisely because these claims are untrue.
The factual position is that Ryanair has an unblemished 28 year safety record, the only
pressure placed on our pilots is to fly safely and as confirmed by the recent
Irish/Spanish safety authority statement Ryanair's safety is "on a par with the safest
airlines in Europe."
Your first programme was based on no evidence whatsoever, other than false claims made by
unidentified persons in darkened rooms precisely so their false claims could not be
tested. This is a new low for so called "investigative journalism".
We note that your two new claims are equally untrue and unsupported by any factual
evidence whatsoever. We now answer these false claims as follows:
1. Since Ryanair pilots can only fly a max of 900 hours per year (an average of just
18 hours per week, compared to most peoples' 40 hours per week), any Ryanair pilots
(regardless of whether they are direct employees or contractors) that miss a flight due to
illness can easily replace those flights before the end of the year and so no pilots lose
any pay for being "unfit to fly". Ryanair also requires pilots to declare if they feel
unfit to fly in which case they will be replaced by other standby pilots and such
certifications happen routinely.
Please ask your anonymous contributors to provide evidence of their flight hours in the
last 12 months which will confirm that they suffered no loss of pay as a result of being
unfit to fly at any time. These claims are simply false which is why you have provided no
evidence to support them.
2. Your first programme was completely untrue. Ryanair's fuel policy allows pilots
to take as much fuel as they want, and neither you nor your anonymous contributors
provided any evidence to the contrary, or any evidence of this so called "pressure".
The only pressure placed on Ryanair pilots is to fly safely, which is why each Ryanair
captain has full discretion on how much fuel they take.
You have also been misled about Ryanair's fuel league tables which rank only fuel burn per
month and not fuel loads per flight. The sole purpose of these tables is to encourage
pilots to fly safely (i.e. at the correct heights and speeds), they do not rank fuel loads
or extra fuel taken.
As these false claims demonstrate, your first programme and your second programme lack any
evidence whatsoever and are based solely on false claims made by anonymous contributors
who are unwilling to identify themselves precisely because these claims are untrue.
The factual position is that Ryanair has an unblemished 28 year safety record, the only
pressure placed on our pilots is to fly safely and as confirmed by the recent
Irish/Spanish safety authority statement Ryanair's safety is "on a par with the safest
airlines in Europe."
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Box, is this a quote from a person "SM" or are you that person?
Either way, this has to be the most extraordinary statement I have read in a long while:
Either way, this has to be the most extraordinary statement I have read in a long while:
1. Since Ryanair pilots can only fly a max of 900 hours per year (an average of just 18 hours per week, compared to most peoples' 40 hours per week), any Ryanair pilots (regardless of whether they are direct employees or contractors) that miss a flight due to illness can easily replace those flights before the end of the year and so no pilots lose any pay for being "unfit to fly". Ryanair also requires pilots to declare if they feel unfit to fly in which case they will be replaced by other standby pilots and such certifications happen routinely.
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You have also been misled about Ryanair's fuel league tables which rank only fuel burn per month and not fuel loads per flight. The sole purpose of these tables is to encourage pilots to fly safely (i.e. at the correct heights and speeds), they do not rank fuel loads or extra fuel taken.
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How does that work then?
But the question is: who ends up at the top of the fuel league?
Is that the one who uses the fewest tripfuel, or is it the one who takes the fewest extra (captain's-)fuel overall per month?
I have to agree with squawk-7600 on this one. This is by far the most factual incorrect official statement to come out of an airline in many years. Block hours is confused with duty hours as duty hours for most airlines is maxed at 55 hours a week. I think someone from the PR-office will be looking for different employment soon.
1. Since Ryanair pilots can only fly a max of 900 hours per year (an average of just 18 hours per week, compared to most peoples' 40 hours per week), any Ryanair pilots (regardless of whether they are direct employees or contractors) that miss a flight due to illness can easily replace those flights before the end of the year and so no pilots lose any pay for being "unfit to fly". Ryanair also requires pilots to declare if they feel unfit to fly in which case they will be replaced by other standby pilots and such certifications happen routinely.
1. Since Ryanair pilots can only fly a max of 900 hours per year (an average of just 18 hours per week, compared to most peoples' 40 hours per week), any Ryanair pilots (regardless of whether they are direct employees or contractors) that miss a flight due to illness can easily replace those flights before the end of the year and so no pilots lose any pay for being "unfit to fly". Ryanair also requires pilots to declare if they feel unfit to fly in which case they will be replaced by other standby pilots and such certifications happen routinely.
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The fuel table compares plog burn and actual burn for each calendar month and is influenced very heavily by the routes flown. Some routes consistently give savings of 500-1000kg, others you will be lucky to save 100kg. In general those at the bottom will include people who have had missed approaches, diversions etc and also people who have only flown a few sectors and thus not had the advantage of a spread of routes and averaging. So basically it isn't really that statistically interesting since it compares people with 4hrs and 115hrs.....
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2 points from me:
1) Is any effort made by Ryanair to ensure an 'evening out' of paid work over the year as per the PR response? I hear rumours that a form of 'victimisation' can occur (on a roster basis) whereby those who 'annoy' for whatever reason get little or no paid work on a particular roster. What, if any, system is in place to ensure that at the end of the roster year the income/flying duty has been levelled out?
2) Without knowledge of the algorithms involved in fuel league tables, they are to a large extent worthless. The BA ones had all the 'managers' who rarely night-stopped (leading to no early AM arrivals) and nearly always 'worked' AM and 'chose' often to fly in the afternoon when things were more 'settled', at the top of the tables, and those regularly facing 'peak time' arrivals towards the bottom.
I think we need to ensure that those seeking employment with Ryanair are fully aware of the treatment and T&C they can expect, probably via the 'Terms and Endearment' forum. Obviously the likelihood of self-funding accommodation and living expenses for a few days at a base with mostly unpaid standby duty there is a serious factor. Obviously the information posted must be accurate and truthful to avoid the RY pack of legal hounds, but it needs to be done to be fair to the newcomers, and if, of course, the potential employees decide not to join, there may be the need to improve current conditions to maintain a work-force.
I still have not had an answer from current employees as to whether they knew about these 'T&C' before they signed or whether there has been a 'change' since. Any replies will be treated in strict confidence and can be via email if desired.
1) Is any effort made by Ryanair to ensure an 'evening out' of paid work over the year as per the PR response? I hear rumours that a form of 'victimisation' can occur (on a roster basis) whereby those who 'annoy' for whatever reason get little or no paid work on a particular roster. What, if any, system is in place to ensure that at the end of the roster year the income/flying duty has been levelled out?
2) Without knowledge of the algorithms involved in fuel league tables, they are to a large extent worthless. The BA ones had all the 'managers' who rarely night-stopped (leading to no early AM arrivals) and nearly always 'worked' AM and 'chose' often to fly in the afternoon when things were more 'settled', at the top of the tables, and those regularly facing 'peak time' arrivals towards the bottom.
I think we need to ensure that those seeking employment with Ryanair are fully aware of the treatment and T&C they can expect, probably via the 'Terms and Endearment' forum. Obviously the likelihood of self-funding accommodation and living expenses for a few days at a base with mostly unpaid standby duty there is a serious factor. Obviously the information posted must be accurate and truthful to avoid the RY pack of legal hounds, but it needs to be done to be fair to the newcomers, and if, of course, the potential employees decide not to join, there may be the need to improve current conditions to maintain a work-force.
I still have not had an answer from current employees as to whether they knew about these 'T&C' before they signed or whether there has been a 'change' since. Any replies will be treated in strict confidence and can be via email if desired.
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I have to agree with squawk-7600 on this one. This is by far the most factual incorrect official statement to come out of an airline in many years. Block hours is confused with duty hours as duty hours for most airlines is maxed at 55 hours a week. I think someone from the PR-office will be looking for different employment soon.
There is no confusion- they know *exactly* what they are doing. McNamara (and O'Leary) have used this statement many times before to try and show to the general public pilots are spoilt brats who are overpaid and underworked. They both know full well how many duty hours the average pilot works per week (usually well over 40).
This statement is designed to deliberately antagonise the pilot workforce. It is typical of the spiteful untruthful statements made on a regular basis by the management but don't just take my word for it:-
"The truth and Ryanair are uncomfortable bedfellows"
Mr Justice Peter Kelly speaking in the High Court in Dublin, June 4th 2010
Last edited by Aldente; 8th Jan 2013 at 08:45.
I agree with you Aldente. They normally have no problem with alternative versions of the truth. However this statement is so laughably incorrect that any just mediocre news-reporter can tear it apart.
MOL is normally more cunning than this..
MOL is normally more cunning than this..
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Seconded - nearly all the press take it at face value and report as such.
This then gives rise to Joe Public making comments such as these (from a Daily Mirror blog)
This then gives rise to Joe Public making comments such as these (from a Daily Mirror blog)
How awful - imagine having to work 900 hours in a year - that must be 18 hours a week - must be a push for him to sit down for that long. Imagine also being forced to take a holiday - how mean of Ryanair. Give me a break please! 500k public servants lose their jobs and the Mirror complains about someone being forced to work 900 hours!
Last edited by Aldente; 8th Jan 2013 at 11:58.
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Spanish TV programme will report on Ryanair
Spanish TV channel Antena 3 will broadcast this Friday a program on Ryanair. The content of the programme is not announced but I am pretty sure it will not benefit Ryanair.
Ryanair, en el punto de mira del nuevo 'Equipo de investigación de La Sexta - Ecoteuve.es
Annoucement of the programme and a very short teaser video. Guess it explains the content
Ryanair: al límite - laSexta
Ryanair has had a lot of negative news in Spanish press. The unions in Spain do not like the lowcost carrier for several reasons. One of the reasons is the lose of jobs of carriers like Iberia. Guess they blaim Ryanair the bankruptcy of Spanair as well.
The manager of the news desk of Antena 3 is the wife of former CEO of Spanair and Vueling, Carlos Muñoz
Vueling Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ryanair, en el punto de mira del nuevo 'Equipo de investigación de La Sexta - Ecoteuve.es
Annoucement of the programme and a very short teaser video. Guess it explains the content
Ryanair: al límite - laSexta
Ryanair has had a lot of negative news in Spanish press. The unions in Spain do not like the lowcost carrier for several reasons. One of the reasons is the lose of jobs of carriers like Iberia. Guess they blaim Ryanair the bankruptcy of Spanair as well.
The manager of the news desk of Antena 3 is the wife of former CEO of Spanair and Vueling, Carlos Muñoz
Vueling Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by 1stspotter; 8th Jan 2013 at 19:57.
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The crewcode of Ryanair pilots is shown on the fuel league list as well as the base.
Can a Rynair pilot easily identify their co-workers by the crewcode? (something like WQEWS
Can a Rynair pilot easily identify their co-workers by the crewcode? (something like WQEWS
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Out of curiosity, and just trying to follow the logic of the response regarding hours flown, how many hours per year are you guys at Ryanair doing? From that response it means you must all be up at 900 hrs consistently.
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FO average is 700 - 850, CPT are up to the 850 - 900
Crewcode is made up from your forename and surname.
Eg Joe Bloggs would be BLOGJO
Crewcode is made up from your forename and surname.
Eg Joe Bloggs would be BLOGJO
Last edited by SD.; 8th Jan 2013 at 16:17.
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True we can only "fly" 900 hours a year, however.
When he says "flying" he actually means the block times which are limited to a maximum of 900 hours a year (JAA rules). What he doesn´t say is that before each duty a minimum of 45 minutes are spent and a minimum of 30 minutes are also spent post flight. Add to that all turnaround times between flights, simulator checks, travelling and other time spent. Saying pilots in Ryanair only fly 900 hours a year is correct. But at the same time misleading, especially for someone not involved in the airline industry.
It is a bit like saying someone working in an office is "working" as long as they type on the keyboard and talking on the phone doesn´t count.
When he says "flying" he actually means the block times which are limited to a maximum of 900 hours a year (JAA rules). What he doesn´t say is that before each duty a minimum of 45 minutes are spent and a minimum of 30 minutes are also spent post flight. Add to that all turnaround times between flights, simulator checks, travelling and other time spent. Saying pilots in Ryanair only fly 900 hours a year is correct. But at the same time misleading, especially for someone not involved in the airline industry.
It is a bit like saying someone working in an office is "working" as long as they type on the keyboard and talking on the phone doesn´t count.
Last edited by Zipster; 8th Jan 2013 at 22:04.
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Posting from the terms and endearment forum
http://www.pprune.org/7450681-post18.html
Average of 55 hours per month at 60 euro per hour for FO.
I also read at another forum some FO fly 30 hours a month and make no hours during 5 day standby
http://www.pprune.org/7450681-post18.html
Average of 55 hours per month at 60 euro per hour for FO.
I also read at another forum some FO fly 30 hours a month and make no hours during 5 day standby
