Dutch TV reports on 'Ryanair pilots denominated alarm over safety'
Lastly, I don't know if anyone has mentioned the fact that Ryanair pilots cannot belong to a union.
Of course, Ryanair don't want union recognition but that is another matter!
Personally I wouldn't dream of flying for any Company without being a member of a Pilot Union - when the proverbial hits the fan it's nice to have someone who is batting for you - and it certainly won't be the Company (whoever you work for!)
Interesting clip from the past here!
Unions
Last edited by fireflybob; 7th Jan 2013 at 08:33.
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Without company 'recognition', union membership gives only basic assistance such as legal advice but will not easily influence T&Cs. What is REPA up to these days? Have I missed a comment from them on this thread? Their last 'news item' appears to be 2005 and ITF have not made any mention of RY recently. Are they dead in the water?
worth adding if you divert and come back without passengers then cabin crew are just paid for outbound sector.
Also the way of having around a 1/3 of pay dependent on flying for Ryanair contracts and 100% of pay for Brookfield contracts is bound to encourage people to fly when not well, people still have bills to pay particularly in winter when your not working much, i guess you could say the same about Easyjet flexicrew. You can then add the actual or perceived pressure from company management not to call in sick.
Also the way of having around a 1/3 of pay dependent on flying for Ryanair contracts and 100% of pay for Brookfield contracts is bound to encourage people to fly when not well, people still have bills to pay particularly in winter when your not working much, i guess you could say the same about Easyjet flexicrew. You can then add the actual or perceived pressure from company management not to call in sick.
Without company 'recognition', union membership gives only basic assistance such as legal advice but will not easily influence T&Cs.
What is REPA up to these days?
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I watched the consumer programme of the German channel WDR on Ryanair. It was broadcasted in November 2012 and can be seen online
Die teuren Tricks der Billigflieger - WDR MEDIATHEK - WDR.de
Only in German language!
The programme showed two memos sent by base captain on fuel.
The programme did a much more deep and broader investigation on how Ryanair is able to offer such low prices for tickets than KRO Reporter did.
This programme had an interview with an anonymous Ryanair pilot and with Michael O'Leary himself.
Funny thing to note. The reporter went inside the HQ of Ryanair in Dublin for an interview. The HQ did not look like a HQ of a 300+ aircraft airline. The meeting room has a very sad looking, broken shades.
http://s14.postimage.org/tn9hn4c9t/shades.jpg
I guess this says something about the cost reducing culture of the airline.
The pilot also says Ryanair makes sure they do not clearly document pressure put on crew on paper. You have to read between the lines in memos to understand pressure.
Some interesting parts of the programme:
1. The Ryanair pilot tells Ryanair uses the airstair which are built into the Boeing 737-800 on a regular daily base. This is to reduce costs for steps provided by the handling agent. It also allows a very quick turnaround.
The pilot says these steps are not meant/designed to be used frequently. These airstairs are steep and some accidents happened of pax falling off. In one case someone lost a leg while using airsteps.
Airstair Vigilance | Flight Safety Foundation
Also, according the pilot, Boeing did not design the steps to be used for daily operations.
O'Leary was asked by the reporter why Ryanair is using onboard steps while these are not designed for daily use. MOL response was:
"absolute nonsense. Onboard steps are certified, tested and approved for every situation.
The programme showed (not in the interview) a response of Boeing. See the screendump. I believe Boeing does not clearly state that airstairs cannot be used as a generall way of boarding. The reporter asks two questions in the same lines.
Picture of the email response of Boeing
http://s14.postimage.org/b8ud5eald/steps.jpg
2. The pilot states Ryanair is the only airline which allows a FO to be upgraded to commander after 'just' 1500 hours of flying in an aircraft over 25 tonnes. This is not enough experience to command a 70k tonnes heavy aircraft according the pilot.
MOL was not asked for a response.
3. The programme showed the memo sent to Ryanair pilots. Part of the content was described in this thread. It shows a memo issued in May 2008 and reissued in December 2011. It seems to come from the CRL base.
The memo writes: there is a 95% compliance to plog + 300 kg or less. Currently there is an average additional carriage of plog + 270 kg at CRL.
Not all of the memo can be read. It does say as well:
"The commander may take up to 300 kg. If more fuel is taken this has to be explained on the Voyage Report.
Picture of the memo
http://s1.postimage.org/5ltl4db0v/fuel_memo.jpg
Another memo quotes US Senator Daniel Moynihan 'you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. I trust this memo will be helpful in establishing facts. Thank you for reading this memo and thank you for your continued awareness of the efficiency element of the equation 'operate safely, efficiently and punctuality'
Picture of the memo
http://s9.postimage.org/lbdx1qoe7/fuel_letter.jpg
MOL says no pressure is put on pilot for taking minimal fuel.
4 The programme tells how Ryanair puts pressure on airports to lower airport fee and tax per passenger. And how they can all of a sudden leave an airport. Part of the business model is to use small airports. Those are cheap and also Ryanair as most imported customer can demand a lot. Tax payers pay the price.
Die teuren Tricks der Billigflieger - WDR MEDIATHEK - WDR.de
Only in German language!
The programme showed two memos sent by base captain on fuel.
The programme did a much more deep and broader investigation on how Ryanair is able to offer such low prices for tickets than KRO Reporter did.
This programme had an interview with an anonymous Ryanair pilot and with Michael O'Leary himself.
Funny thing to note. The reporter went inside the HQ of Ryanair in Dublin for an interview. The HQ did not look like a HQ of a 300+ aircraft airline. The meeting room has a very sad looking, broken shades.
http://s14.postimage.org/tn9hn4c9t/shades.jpg
I guess this says something about the cost reducing culture of the airline.
The pilot also says Ryanair makes sure they do not clearly document pressure put on crew on paper. You have to read between the lines in memos to understand pressure.
Some interesting parts of the programme:
1. The Ryanair pilot tells Ryanair uses the airstair which are built into the Boeing 737-800 on a regular daily base. This is to reduce costs for steps provided by the handling agent. It also allows a very quick turnaround.
The pilot says these steps are not meant/designed to be used frequently. These airstairs are steep and some accidents happened of pax falling off. In one case someone lost a leg while using airsteps.
Airstair Vigilance | Flight Safety Foundation
Also, according the pilot, Boeing did not design the steps to be used for daily operations.
O'Leary was asked by the reporter why Ryanair is using onboard steps while these are not designed for daily use. MOL response was:
"absolute nonsense. Onboard steps are certified, tested and approved for every situation.
The programme showed (not in the interview) a response of Boeing. See the screendump. I believe Boeing does not clearly state that airstairs cannot be used as a generall way of boarding. The reporter asks two questions in the same lines.
Picture of the email response of Boeing
http://s14.postimage.org/b8ud5eald/steps.jpg
2. The pilot states Ryanair is the only airline which allows a FO to be upgraded to commander after 'just' 1500 hours of flying in an aircraft over 25 tonnes. This is not enough experience to command a 70k tonnes heavy aircraft according the pilot.
MOL was not asked for a response.
3. The programme showed the memo sent to Ryanair pilots. Part of the content was described in this thread. It shows a memo issued in May 2008 and reissued in December 2011. It seems to come from the CRL base.
The memo writes: there is a 95% compliance to plog + 300 kg or less. Currently there is an average additional carriage of plog + 270 kg at CRL.
Not all of the memo can be read. It does say as well:
"The commander may take up to 300 kg. If more fuel is taken this has to be explained on the Voyage Report.
Picture of the memo
http://s1.postimage.org/5ltl4db0v/fuel_memo.jpg
Another memo quotes US Senator Daniel Moynihan 'you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. I trust this memo will be helpful in establishing facts. Thank you for reading this memo and thank you for your continued awareness of the efficiency element of the equation 'operate safely, efficiently and punctuality'
Picture of the memo
http://s9.postimage.org/lbdx1qoe7/fuel_letter.jpg
MOL says no pressure is put on pilot for taking minimal fuel.
4 The programme tells how Ryanair puts pressure on airports to lower airport fee and tax per passenger. And how they can all of a sudden leave an airport. Part of the business model is to use small airports. Those are cheap and also Ryanair as most imported customer can demand a lot. Tax payers pay the price.
Last edited by 1stspotter; 7th Jan 2013 at 09:52.
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In my five years with Ryanair ...........................Whilst I do not agree the ethics of Ryanair the technical and operational side of the Company is second to none thanks to their training system and the skill and dedication of all their crews.
At the same time I think that the way they treat their customers is simply unacceptable; it's a mixture of quasi-fraudulent practices and contempt, which reaches into the way people are handled at airports. And they are often more expensive than any other airline on a given route, taking all charges and costs into account.
Last time I looked, Ryanair's average yield was higher than BA's, on short-haul. That was a few years (3? 4?) ago. Ryanair carefully cultivates the myth of its cheap fares, not least by keeping the "fare" low and adding ridiculous "charges", as well as simply shouting the nonsense so often that people believe it.
I love it when people talk about "perceived" things like "pressure". What this usually means is that there isn't a shred of evidence for whatever is "perceived", but let's complain about it anyway because everyone says it's there.
By the way, it's a long time since I did a flight plan and load sheet, but I seem to recall that the sector fuel required (aka "minimum" fuel) included a provision for unforeseens? The Captain could add to that, and did, if unusual events were a risk (aka foreseeable), ie airport closure at destination or alternate. But the norm of 90%+++ of departures was sector fuel calculated as per FOM. Anything wrong with that?
Last edited by Capot; 7th Jan 2013 at 10:06.
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More tv programmes with anonymous pilots
Some people downgrade the four pilots anonymous shown in KRO Reporter as liers or actors which have a agenda to damage Ryanair.
There have been more programmes showing current or ex-Ryanair pilots. The stories have a different aspect of the life of a Ryanair pilot.
In oktober 2010 Dutch TV programme Goudzoekers had an interview with a former Ryanair pilot (or someone in training). He told that he knew several pilots who slept in their car at airports because they could not afford a hotel. A Norwegian union leader confirmed the story. Severall sources told him pilots had to sleep in their car.
The programme can be seen online. Most parts are in dutch. It also has a small interview with MOL in english.
MOL states at 12 minutes 50 sec in the programme 'we have the highest payment for European airlines for pilots"
'we have a waiting list of 5000 pilots who want to work for us'
'the fact that unions are complaining proves we are good to other pilots and cabincrew'
'nobody leaves Ryanair to fly for BA. Because FR pays better and the rate of promotion is better. '
'last year less than 1% of the FR pilots left the company'
'our pilots earn 125.000 euro a year from the start of their career'
'first officers earned on average last year around 70.000 euro.Somebody earning 70.000 has to sleep in an airport carpark? Rubbish
Uitzending gemist | Goudzoekers, Ryanair op Nederland 2
There have been more programmes showing current or ex-Ryanair pilots. The stories have a different aspect of the life of a Ryanair pilot.
In oktober 2010 Dutch TV programme Goudzoekers had an interview with a former Ryanair pilot (or someone in training). He told that he knew several pilots who slept in their car at airports because they could not afford a hotel. A Norwegian union leader confirmed the story. Severall sources told him pilots had to sleep in their car.
The programme can be seen online. Most parts are in dutch. It also has a small interview with MOL in english.
MOL states at 12 minutes 50 sec in the programme 'we have the highest payment for European airlines for pilots"
'we have a waiting list of 5000 pilots who want to work for us'
'the fact that unions are complaining proves we are good to other pilots and cabincrew'
'nobody leaves Ryanair to fly for BA. Because FR pays better and the rate of promotion is better. '
'last year less than 1% of the FR pilots left the company'
'our pilots earn 125.000 euro a year from the start of their career'
'first officers earned on average last year around 70.000 euro.Somebody earning 70.000 has to sleep in an airport carpark? Rubbish
Uitzending gemist | Goudzoekers, Ryanair op Nederland 2
Last edited by 1stspotter; 7th Jan 2013 at 10:22.
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Boeing did not design the steps to be used for daily operations.
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Could a current RY contract pilot cut through all the smoke here and confirm:
1) You are only paid for scheduled flight time - 'extra' plus any diversion time is unpaid?
2) Taking MAD-VLC a stage further - suppose at VLC due to slow pax transfer it became impossible to operate back to base and you took 'min rest' at either VLC or after going to MAD? Who arranges and pays hotac?
3) Following 1), does the subsequent flight (VLC-MAD or VLC-base) become a 'scheduled payment' flight?
1) You are only paid for scheduled flight time - 'extra' plus any diversion time is unpaid?
2) Taking MAD-VLC a stage further - suppose at VLC due to slow pax transfer it became impossible to operate back to base and you took 'min rest' at either VLC or after going to MAD? Who arranges and pays hotac?
3) Following 1), does the subsequent flight (VLC-MAD or VLC-base) become a 'scheduled payment' flight?
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Interesting.
Sunday Times pays substantial damages to Ryanair over safety breaches story | PressGazette
I make no comment over the validity of the claim or the apology but I do know, for a fact, about another news publication apology and another airline (not RYR) which was made as it was cheaper than fighting it, and later events proved the publication correct but by then it was too late.
Sunday Times pays substantial damages to Ryanair over safety breaches story | PressGazette
I make no comment over the validity of the claim or the apology but I do know, for a fact, about another news publication apology and another airline (not RYR) which was made as it was cheaper than fighting it, and later events proved the publication correct but by then it was too late.
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@BOAC
Hi BOAC, I am a current Ryanair pilot, let me try to answer those for you. We need to look at it from a contractors perspective, when it comes to employees it looks different. 72% of the workforce are contractors (2011 FR SEC Filing)
1) You are only paid for scheduled flight time - 'extra' plus any diversion time is unpaid?
Yes this is true, you only get paid for the hours put on your roster, diversions, holding, tech stops and ALL time spent on the ground is unpaid. For example if you are rostered for a 4 sector day and you end up diverting on sector one, youŽll most likely lose the last two sectors pay, and end up on the ground unpaid instead waiting for the passengers... In short you need to have the hours on your roster and the aircraft needs to be airborne, if not, no pay.
2) Taking MAD-VLC a stage further - suppose at VLC due to slow pax transfer it became impossible to operate back to base and you took 'min rest' at either VLC or after going to MAD? Who arranges and pays hotac?
In this case i would say the company, if you get stuck at a outstation in case of a diversion etc then the company pays and books at least for HOTAC and Transport, but the duty time spent is not paid to any crew member. Food and drinks if away from base is in my understanding always the responsibility of the crew-member.
3) Following 1), does the subsequent flight (VLC-MAD or VLC-base) become a 'scheduled payment' flight?
I think it will for payment to the crew, but only for the scheduled sector time, which is not very long in this case looking at MAD-VLC.
Hi BOAC, I am a current Ryanair pilot, let me try to answer those for you. We need to look at it from a contractors perspective, when it comes to employees it looks different. 72% of the workforce are contractors (2011 FR SEC Filing)
1) You are only paid for scheduled flight time - 'extra' plus any diversion time is unpaid?
Yes this is true, you only get paid for the hours put on your roster, diversions, holding, tech stops and ALL time spent on the ground is unpaid. For example if you are rostered for a 4 sector day and you end up diverting on sector one, youŽll most likely lose the last two sectors pay, and end up on the ground unpaid instead waiting for the passengers... In short you need to have the hours on your roster and the aircraft needs to be airborne, if not, no pay.
2) Taking MAD-VLC a stage further - suppose at VLC due to slow pax transfer it became impossible to operate back to base and you took 'min rest' at either VLC or after going to MAD? Who arranges and pays hotac?
In this case i would say the company, if you get stuck at a outstation in case of a diversion etc then the company pays and books at least for HOTAC and Transport, but the duty time spent is not paid to any crew member. Food and drinks if away from base is in my understanding always the responsibility of the crew-member.
3) Following 1), does the subsequent flight (VLC-MAD or VLC-base) become a 'scheduled payment' flight?
I think it will for payment to the crew, but only for the scheduled sector time, which is not very long in this case looking at MAD-VLC.
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It's never "too late" in that regard, the defendant losing the libel case would have the ability to later sue the original plaintiff to recover the damages paid, plus interest, plus costs, and in some jurisdictions additional punitive damages would likely be awarded. By sheer coincidence at the bottom of the page in the link you provided was a story on Lance Armstrong, and that precise situation is occurring at the moment with him.
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By sheer coincidence at the bottom of the page in the link you provided was a story on Lance Armstrong, and that precise situation is occurring at the moment with him.
Ryanair is a very safe airline, it seems to sicken most of the posters on this forum, you would be thrilled to bits if they had a serious incident.
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FR
Fair point for 2013 I am going to resist FR bashing
2013 12 months 79.6 millions passengers carried 300+ planes and growing
hard to knock that to be fair
If only MOL would tone it down a bit.....sorry falling into that trap again...
2013 12 months 79.6 millions passengers carried 300+ planes and growing
hard to knock that to be fair
If only MOL would tone it down a bit.....sorry falling into that trap again...
2) Taking MAD-VLC a stage further - suppose at VLC due to slow pax transfer it became impossible to operate back to base and you took 'min rest' at either VLC or after going to MAD? Who arranges and pays hotac?
I was not a contractor (thank goodness) so cannot comment on your other queries.
Last edited by fireflybob; 7th Jan 2013 at 17:32.
I make no comment over the validity of the claim or the apology but I do know, for a fact, about another news publication apology and another airline (not RYR) which was made as it was cheaper than fighting it, and later events proved the publication correct but by then it was too late.
The "I make no comment" but then "know for a fact" is a mealy mouthed way of claiming you believe a story proven to be a lie.
ST stated unequivocally that no such Spanish report existed and that has proven to be fact, it never existed, so thereby them quoting a non existent report as fact has shown them to be lying.
If such a report existed then clearly it would already be in the public domain but based on the numerous sources across the Industry it has never existed.
