El Al pilot arrested at JFK airport.
It might be worth mentioning that retractable batons are considered "weapons" in some US jurisdiction, and unless they're visible on your person they're considered "concealed weapons". The piece of paper that allows an individual to carry a firearm onto a flight deck does not necessarily clear that individual to pack around a retractable baton.
I'm not sure what New York's laws are on this, but you certainly don't want to get popped carrying one in, say, California any more than you would a knife of a certain length.
I'm not sure what New York's laws are on this, but you certainly don't want to get popped carrying one in, say, California any more than you would a knife of a certain length.
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It might be worth mentioning that retractable batons are considered "weapons" in some US jurisdiction, and unless they're visible on your person they're considered "concealed weapons". The piece of paper that allows an individual to carry a firearm onto a flight deck does not necessarily clear that individual to pack around a retractable baton.
That is right......TSA removed a nail scissors considered too long from a captain with a weapon license and loaded revolver...
Sorry, but most of these guys are following "rules" and have their judgement and brains turned off. Like when toddlers are denied boarding, because they are on the "no-fly list." obviously an error, same name or something, but that 18 month old is not on the list!
But we are being trained now to accept any manner of intrusion and BS. We accept that TSA people rifle through our bags, that our phone calls and Internet communications are monitored...... We have as a culture, completely lost the plot.
That is right......TSA removed a nail scissors considered too long from a captain with a weapon license and loaded revolver...
Sorry, but most of these guys are following "rules" and have their judgement and brains turned off. Like when toddlers are denied boarding, because they are on the "no-fly list." obviously an error, same name or something, but that 18 month old is not on the list!
But we are being trained now to accept any manner of intrusion and BS. We accept that TSA people rifle through our bags, that our phone calls and Internet communications are monitored...... We have as a culture, completely lost the plot.
Originally Posted by FerrypilotDK
That is right......TSA removed a nail scissors considered too long from a captain with a weapon license and loaded revolver...
Sorry, but most of these guys are following "rules" and have their judgement and brains turned off. Like when toddlers are denied boarding, because they are on the "no-fly list." obviously an error, same name or something, but that 18 month old is not on the list!
But we are being trained now to accept any manner of intrusion and BS. We accept that TSA people rifle through our bags, that our phone calls and Internet communications are monitored...... We have as a culture, completely lost the plot.
Sorry, but most of these guys are following "rules" and have their judgement and brains turned off. Like when toddlers are denied boarding, because they are on the "no-fly list." obviously an error, same name or something, but that 18 month old is not on the list!
But we are being trained now to accept any manner of intrusion and BS. We accept that TSA people rifle through our bags, that our phone calls and Internet communications are monitored...... We have as a culture, completely lost the plot.
Nail scissors? Never intended to be a weapon.
So in this case, TSA did what it was supposed to do. Would you prefer TSA employees make judgement calls about what weapons certain individuals SHOULD be permitted to take on board?
Not I.
I'd imagine a rather unexpectedly sharp TSA agent spotted the baton and alerted a nearby cop, who recognized that the owner of said luggage was in violation of PC s 265.20. Arrest, at that point, is assured. It's not as if TSA arrested this guy.
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I have never been through JFK as crew, so I have no idea if what I am about to say is 'kosher', pun INTENDED! I am an airline pilot and agree that we should be subjected to the same security frisking as passengers IF at any point prior to boarding there is the possibility of mingling with passengers from other flights. Is it really that impossible that a pilot would take a weapon past security and give it to a 'passenger'? Don't get me wrong, the TSA drove me nuts a couple of times with all their varying procedures, not to mention their hearing/communication abilities! I also think that anybody allowed to pass through security, like the police, with a weapon should be checked on the way out to ensure that they take out everything they took in. This is for the exact same reason we should be checked.
"If all the passengers on 9/11 had been carrying batons, 9/11 wouldn't have happened."
Incorrect. The 9/11 hijakers were successful not due to lack of weapons amongst the passengers. If you were a professional pilot, at age 63 now, you'd be old enough to remember standard Hijack training prior to 2001.
Why, prior to 9/11, would a passenger interfere in a highjacking and risk losing ALL his stuff due to being sued by some other passenger should things not go well?
Last edited by mangere1957; 24th Nov 2012 at 02:46.
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some of you guys scare me......
This is a perfect of example of why this country is going to fail.
Some of you seem to get it and some of you scare me, you probably voted for the obama-nation.
First of all- (El Al) this is the safest, toughest airline in the world.
2nd- yes we have crash axes, that are probably considered weapons in most of the world.
3rd- We as pilots don't need weapons to kill xxx people if not more anytime we want.
4th- Some of us carry guns on the aircraft, those may be weapons also.
And the TSA grabs this guy for a baton (i carry one in my car at all times, I am ex G-man) because..... he might take over the plane..... wow never thought about a pilot controlling a plane before, could that really happen????
Now, one of you big thinkers said, he might give it to a passenger on another flight!!!! Really, then what you are saying is that pilot is a terrorist..
Got a news flash for you, your right, a "legit pilot" terrorist could pass stuff to passengers. But he could anyway, there are ways for pilots to get about anything thru they want. You are not going to stop a "legit pilot" terrorist from doing his deeds, sorry. AND most importantly, he wouldn't be passing a baton for that use, have any of you used a baton, it takes many hours of training to use it effectively AND it is worthless in a confined space such as an airplane. Unless you are 3' tall, then it would still be very ineffective.
But hey, we can all feel safe that the TSA in on the job. And no pilot will ever control an aircraft in the good ole USA, cause that would not be safe.
Bottom line, our security measures are great for keeping honest people from doing something, totally ineffective against true criminals, but great fluff for the masses. Reason this country (and i love this country but truth is truth) will fail, you must use sense when doing your job, not just written words in a book. Most every other country and i have flown part 121 in most of them, understand this. Hard to believe i know. But not america. Case and point, i flew for a domestic carrier in the USA a few years back, a child came thru security with a GI Joe, and joe had his gov't issue .45. (now everyone understand the joe's .45 was a plastic gun maybe 1" in size if that large, maybe some of you have had a gi joe and know what i am talking about. TSA took it up, saying no guns allowed on the plane. I immediately stepped in and took it from TSA, i was still outside security and told the father i would see him later, they were on my flight. I went thru security and gave the GUN to the passenger on the plane, they were thankful that joe didn't have to go to war without his sidearm. I felt better knowing joe had his .45 in the back of my plane, so it was a win win. Now if you are starting to get the point of my rant then you are the intelligent one(s) good for you, if you are still confused about my comment, then yes obama is a great president and going to save you, standby...
Some of you seem to get it and some of you scare me, you probably voted for the obama-nation.
First of all- (El Al) this is the safest, toughest airline in the world.
2nd- yes we have crash axes, that are probably considered weapons in most of the world.
3rd- We as pilots don't need weapons to kill xxx people if not more anytime we want.
4th- Some of us carry guns on the aircraft, those may be weapons also.
And the TSA grabs this guy for a baton (i carry one in my car at all times, I am ex G-man) because..... he might take over the plane..... wow never thought about a pilot controlling a plane before, could that really happen????
Now, one of you big thinkers said, he might give it to a passenger on another flight!!!! Really, then what you are saying is that pilot is a terrorist..
Got a news flash for you, your right, a "legit pilot" terrorist could pass stuff to passengers. But he could anyway, there are ways for pilots to get about anything thru they want. You are not going to stop a "legit pilot" terrorist from doing his deeds, sorry. AND most importantly, he wouldn't be passing a baton for that use, have any of you used a baton, it takes many hours of training to use it effectively AND it is worthless in a confined space such as an airplane. Unless you are 3' tall, then it would still be very ineffective.
But hey, we can all feel safe that the TSA in on the job. And no pilot will ever control an aircraft in the good ole USA, cause that would not be safe.
Bottom line, our security measures are great for keeping honest people from doing something, totally ineffective against true criminals, but great fluff for the masses. Reason this country (and i love this country but truth is truth) will fail, you must use sense when doing your job, not just written words in a book. Most every other country and i have flown part 121 in most of them, understand this. Hard to believe i know. But not america. Case and point, i flew for a domestic carrier in the USA a few years back, a child came thru security with a GI Joe, and joe had his gov't issue .45. (now everyone understand the joe's .45 was a plastic gun maybe 1" in size if that large, maybe some of you have had a gi joe and know what i am talking about. TSA took it up, saying no guns allowed on the plane. I immediately stepped in and took it from TSA, i was still outside security and told the father i would see him later, they were on my flight. I went thru security and gave the GUN to the passenger on the plane, they were thankful that joe didn't have to go to war without his sidearm. I felt better knowing joe had his .45 in the back of my plane, so it was a win win. Now if you are starting to get the point of my rant then you are the intelligent one(s) good for you, if you are still confused about my comment, then yes obama is a great president and going to save you, standby...
Talk about not getting it...
TSA dude: "Hey, Israeli Pilot Dude, what's this?"
Israeli Pilot Dude: "That, sir, is a retractable baton."
TSA dude checks his list. Oddly, batons are listed as prohibited weapons.
TSA dude motions Port Authority cop over: "Whattya think?"
Port Authority cop recognizes the baton as a weapon illegally carried in New York. He further classifies it as "concealed" under the laws of the state of New York.
Port Authority cop arrests Israeli Pilot Dude.
How is this even a problem?
TSA dude: "Hey, Israeli Pilot Dude, what's this?"
Israeli Pilot Dude: "That, sir, is a retractable baton."
TSA dude checks his list. Oddly, batons are listed as prohibited weapons.
TSA dude motions Port Authority cop over: "Whattya think?"
Port Authority cop recognizes the baton as a weapon illegally carried in New York. He further classifies it as "concealed" under the laws of the state of New York.
Port Authority cop arrests Israeli Pilot Dude.
How is this even a problem?
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Hypothetically, the police officer could have taken him aside, and said something like this
"Sir, I'm going to take your baton, and dispose of it. This time I am not going to charge you for possession of an illegal weapon. I understand that your intentions may be good, but we are all required to follow the (local) law, and regulations. Do not do this again.
I am a sworn peace officer, and unlike you, I am allowed to carry a baton in New York. I may even be required to carry one one. But when I am flying, I am not allowed to bring batons on board aircraft, even if my intentions are good. This may seem strange, and contradictory. After all, you may have a fire-axe in your cockpit, and I may be allowed to bring my gun on certain flights if I follow the right procedure, and there may even be armed law enforcement personnel on your aircraft. However the fire axe, and any weapons were placed on board the aircraft in accordance with laws, regulations, and SOPs.
Regulations, laws, and SOPs are not perfect, but they are the result of well thought-out, structured processes. And they apply to everyone. Except for very exceptional circumstances - certain emergencies - we as individual need to adhere strictly to them. You are clearly not in any emergency right now.
I am sure you understand. So let this be a warning. In New York we take illegal weapons very seriously. Next time you will probably meet a police officer who is less lenient".
"Sir, I'm going to take your baton, and dispose of it. This time I am not going to charge you for possession of an illegal weapon. I understand that your intentions may be good, but we are all required to follow the (local) law, and regulations. Do not do this again.
I am a sworn peace officer, and unlike you, I am allowed to carry a baton in New York. I may even be required to carry one one. But when I am flying, I am not allowed to bring batons on board aircraft, even if my intentions are good. This may seem strange, and contradictory. After all, you may have a fire-axe in your cockpit, and I may be allowed to bring my gun on certain flights if I follow the right procedure, and there may even be armed law enforcement personnel on your aircraft. However the fire axe, and any weapons were placed on board the aircraft in accordance with laws, regulations, and SOPs.
Regulations, laws, and SOPs are not perfect, but they are the result of well thought-out, structured processes. And they apply to everyone. Except for very exceptional circumstances - certain emergencies - we as individual need to adhere strictly to them. You are clearly not in any emergency right now.
I am sure you understand. So let this be a warning. In New York we take illegal weapons very seriously. Next time you will probably meet a police officer who is less lenient".
Last edited by deptrai; 1st Dec 2012 at 10:10.
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Not very long ago I brought 2 rather large knives, about 15cm blades, through the security check at Noibai Airport, in Hanoi.
I was flying to Nairobi as a pax. I was a bit absent-minded, I was thinking about a lot of other things, but I noticed the guy at the scanner stared at the screen and seemed not to believe his eyes. Then some more policemen came. They asked me to open the bag, and I slowly started to understand what I had done
The team leader laughed, and shook his head in disbelief 
I was moving to [insert farway place in Africa here] and had already shipped a lot of things, but then I was a bit late in packing the last small things. And when I emptied the safe, I (obviously) put all valuables I had in the safe in my carry on luggage. Small stuff like gold cufflinks, jewelry, some money, etc. And the 2 knives, in a box. I must have been very absent-minded when I put the knives there. My grandfather had made them for me when I was born, and while they're inlaid with gold, they're not very valuable in terms of money, but of course they're worth a lot to me, I don't want to lose them in checked-in luggage (particularly in developing countries). So I was a bit stressed, moving, a bit late, wondering if I had everything, thinking about the future etc. And since I have never seen myself as a threat to aviation, my brain probably short-circuited, I simply didn't think at all.
The police officer in HN laughed, and said he'll let me put the knives in checked-in luggage, away from the cabin. Escorted me until that was done - I got on board on time - and wished me a nice flight. He smiled all the way, and was very polite. Must have been the the weirdest thing he saw that day. And probably he thought "westerners are all crazy - bringing huge knives" (I agree with that
)
All well. But I was probably lucky I wasn't in the US, I don't think there is a lot of room for common sense and courtesy in most countries anymore. And even if a police officer there had been nice and reasonable, then the TSA agent probably would not be, and vice versa. One or the other would probably file a report, etc, preventing the other from applying common sense. And none of them would probably have bothered to let me keep the knives, even if they had not filed charges. And/or their supervisors would not let them take time away from the duty station. I may be wrong here, exceptions still happen, but I'm not going to test it.
I was flying to Nairobi as a pax. I was a bit absent-minded, I was thinking about a lot of other things, but I noticed the guy at the scanner stared at the screen and seemed not to believe his eyes. Then some more policemen came. They asked me to open the bag, and I slowly started to understand what I had done
The team leader laughed, and shook his head in disbelief I was moving to [insert farway place in Africa here] and had already shipped a lot of things, but then I was a bit late in packing the last small things. And when I emptied the safe, I (obviously) put all valuables I had in the safe in my carry on luggage. Small stuff like gold cufflinks, jewelry, some money, etc. And the 2 knives, in a box. I must have been very absent-minded when I put the knives there. My grandfather had made them for me when I was born, and while they're inlaid with gold, they're not very valuable in terms of money, but of course they're worth a lot to me, I don't want to lose them in checked-in luggage (particularly in developing countries). So I was a bit stressed, moving, a bit late, wondering if I had everything, thinking about the future etc. And since I have never seen myself as a threat to aviation, my brain probably short-circuited, I simply didn't think at all.
The police officer in HN laughed, and said he'll let me put the knives in checked-in luggage, away from the cabin. Escorted me until that was done - I got on board on time - and wished me a nice flight. He smiled all the way, and was very polite. Must have been the the weirdest thing he saw that day. And probably he thought "westerners are all crazy - bringing huge knives" (I agree with that
)All well. But I was probably lucky I wasn't in the US, I don't think there is a lot of room for common sense and courtesy in most countries anymore. And even if a police officer there had been nice and reasonable, then the TSA agent probably would not be, and vice versa. One or the other would probably file a report, etc, preventing the other from applying common sense. And none of them would probably have bothered to let me keep the knives, even if they had not filed charges. And/or their supervisors would not let them take time away from the duty station. I may be wrong here, exceptions still happen, but I'm not going to test it.
Last edited by deptrai; 1st Dec 2012 at 11:12.
In line with the above story:
A couple of weeks ago I passed through a large Asian airport. The screener looked at my carry-on for a fairly long time, after which he pointed something out to another agent, who came to me with a charming smile and said, sorry Sir, you seem to have a knife in your bag. I must have presented a rather dumb incredulous face, as that was my standard travel bag, with contents that have passed through a dozen screenings (including two major European airports on the same journey which I shall not name here...). She immediately went for my toiletry kit, and produced my Swiss army knife, which I realised I have put there two months earlier when I put the whole kit into my checked luggage on another trip. There was a good spirited laugh on both sides, she said if I pass through again on the land side, the knife will be at the lost and found office.... They were very proud at having spotted something that a dozen screeners elsewhere did not. I'd hate to think of what I would have experienced in the land of the brave and the free...
A couple of weeks ago I passed through a large Asian airport. The screener looked at my carry-on for a fairly long time, after which he pointed something out to another agent, who came to me with a charming smile and said, sorry Sir, you seem to have a knife in your bag. I must have presented a rather dumb incredulous face, as that was my standard travel bag, with contents that have passed through a dozen screenings (including two major European airports on the same journey which I shall not name here...). She immediately went for my toiletry kit, and produced my Swiss army knife, which I realised I have put there two months earlier when I put the whole kit into my checked luggage on another trip. There was a good spirited laugh on both sides, she said if I pass through again on the land side, the knife will be at the lost and found office.... They were very proud at having spotted something that a dozen screeners elsewhere did not. I'd hate to think of what I would have experienced in the land of the brave and the free...
Last edited by andrasz; 1st Dec 2012 at 20:53.
What's missing in all this speculation and hyperbole is the actual conversation that took place between the pilot, the TSA agent and the LEO in question. You can bet that the tone of that conversation had more to do with the outcome of this situation than the presence of a simple baton.