Glasgow Airport - JET 2 smoke in cockpit - emergency services called
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Alex, despite your tender years you've just made a valid point.
One aspect of the 1985 Manchester Air Disaster which saw 53 pax and 2 crew die in a smoke filled cabin was the difficulty of evacuation due to lack of space and the bodies of pax in the way.
This diagram speaks volumes and shows why having an evacuation plan in mind puts you ahead in the survival stakes
File:Britair28m.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Would it be right to think that any smoke in cabin incident could potentially develop quickly into far worse a situation?
One aspect of the 1985 Manchester Air Disaster which saw 53 pax and 2 crew die in a smoke filled cabin was the difficulty of evacuation due to lack of space and the bodies of pax in the way.
This diagram speaks volumes and shows why having an evacuation plan in mind puts you ahead in the survival stakes
File:Britair28m.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Would it be right to think that any smoke in cabin incident could potentially develop quickly into far worse a situation?
Last edited by Sir George Cayley; 21st Oct 2012 at 10:36.
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I can't believe...
...that after years of reading this forum something has finally irritated me enough to register ;-). Afternoon all...
When fully trained pilots apparently don't know how to recover from a stall (despite that being taught in practically the first ever lesson I took in a glider,) or forget where the runway is, there is always a long debate about how nobody should place blame, all pilots are fallible, and the system/process/aircraft obviously need redesigning.
When a passenger, whose background we know nothing about, in a highly stressed situation does or says something stupid, it's taken as a sign that the passengers are morons and it's entirely their own fault because the system is completely perfect.
I expect a 15 year old kid to think they're invincible and incapable of making a bad decision, that's why we don't let them drive and why when they do start driving they have a bad habit of killing themselves. But seriously, the adults in the room should take a long hard look at themselves.
Anecdotally, in the last couple of weeks I've flown with Easyjet, Jet2 and BA several times. I always pay attention during the safety briefing, and check the safety card. Some anecdotal data points:
If we can forgive pilots for not knowing how to recover from a stall, I think we should probably forgive passengers for not knowing how to get off the wing of a plane, and maybe look at how safety briefings/aircraft/the system could be modified to improve things in the future.
When fully trained pilots apparently don't know how to recover from a stall (despite that being taught in practically the first ever lesson I took in a glider,) or forget where the runway is, there is always a long debate about how nobody should place blame, all pilots are fallible, and the system/process/aircraft obviously need redesigning.
When a passenger, whose background we know nothing about, in a highly stressed situation does or says something stupid, it's taken as a sign that the passengers are morons and it's entirely their own fault because the system is completely perfect.
I expect a 15 year old kid to think they're invincible and incapable of making a bad decision, that's why we don't let them drive and why when they do start driving they have a bad habit of killing themselves. But seriously, the adults in the room should take a long hard look at themselves.
Anecdotally, in the last couple of weeks I've flown with Easyjet, Jet2 and BA several times. I always pay attention during the safety briefing, and check the safety card. Some anecdotal data points:
- I cannot remember a single flight where the "personalised briefing" for those on the exit row consisted of more than "please will you put your bags in the overhead locker and remember to read the card."
- Back in the old days, when you checked in at the airport, if you checked in to the exit row you were asked if you were capable and willing to handle the exit doors and assist in the evacuation. I assume they also made an assessment of whether or not you were mentally likely to be capable. Since the advent of online checkin that doesn't happen any more. Yes, I presume the gate staff/cabin crew weed out the obviously infirm/incapable, but maybe there is a weakness here. Some airlines now charge extra for the exit row - I imagine there is even more disincentive for crew to remove someone inappropriately seated there if they know they've paid for the privilege.
- The idea that it is "obvious" from the safety card that there are no slides/rafts on the overwing exits (except on those planes where there are) just isn't true. I've checked several safety cards on the internet and some it's far from obvious; the reliance on pictography while understandable means actually some details like that are far from clear. It's also something I don't remember ever being called out by cabin crew. Perhaps the briefing should be updated to make a specific mention.
- It may be obvious to you or me that the large arrows painted on the wing are directions to evacuating passengers, but there are plenty of things written on the wing ("NO STEP", "HOIST POINT", "STAND CLEAR OF THIS AREA WHEN ENGINES RUNNING", "ENSURE SLATS LOCKED BEFORE OPENING THIS COWL" that sort of thing (and yeah I know those wordings are probably inaccurate, I'm going from memory)) that clearly are not directions to passengers under normal circumstances, so why should it be obvious to a normal person which ones are for their benefit and which aren't?
- Someone earlier (cabin crew I guess) said "when have you ever seen a passenger check if their lifejacket is under their seat." I remember being surprised last week when on one flight (BA I think it was) the CC specifically indicated to passengers they could do so if they wanted during the briefing; it's the first time I have ever heard it mentioned; prior to that you would certainly never have seen me checking - on a plane passengers are pretty much told to do what they're told and only what they're told, I for one certainly wouldn't have tried to find the life vest for fear of setting off some kind of alarm or ending up not being able to get the thing back in its holder.
- Realistically, when you're on your sixth flight in as many days on a different airline and aircraft every time and you're flat out knackered, sometimes it's hard to remember where the hell you're flying from and to, let alone specific details of which aircraft you're on, even if you did read the safety card/listen to the briefing. That's just a fact of life. If there is important information people need (like "jump off the wing here, there's no slide",) present it to them when they need it, don't rely on them remembering something that could have been hours earlier.
If we can forgive pilots for not knowing how to recover from a stall, I think we should probably forgive passengers for not knowing how to get off the wing of a plane, and maybe look at how safety briefings/aircraft/the system could be modified to improve things in the future.
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Jean Walker said:
“There were about eight or ten of us on the wing and I was saying people couldn’t come out because there was no chute..
“There were about eight or ten of us on the wing and I was saying people couldn’t come out because there was no chute..
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"I expect a 15 year old kid to think they're invincible and incapable of making a bad decision"
I'm going to assume this is directed at me:
I am in no way saying I am invincible. In an incident, I know I am in a great deal of danger, exactly the same level of danger as everyone onboard. What I am saying is it worries me to think most of the people on board haven't even bothered to familiarize themselves with how to get out of that plane, and that those individuals could hinder a swift exit for everybody else.
I'm going to assume this is directed at me:
I am in no way saying I am invincible. In an incident, I know I am in a great deal of danger, exactly the same level of danger as everyone onboard. What I am saying is it worries me to think most of the people on board haven't even bothered to familiarize themselves with how to get out of that plane, and that those individuals could hinder a swift exit for everybody else.
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Hi Alex757,
I don't think that the post was aimed at you at all
Just for the record, every time I go flying I count the seats to the over-wing exit and also the rows to the forward or aft exit. I always share this information with everybody in my party. I always read the safety card and listen to the briefing.
I have done a fair bit of flying but like to make sure that should anything ever happen I have a plan to hand.
Just saying!
I don't think that the post was aimed at you at all
Just for the record, every time I go flying I count the seats to the over-wing exit and also the rows to the forward or aft exit. I always share this information with everybody in my party. I always read the safety card and listen to the briefing.
I have done a fair bit of flying but like to make sure that should anything ever happen I have a plan to hand.
Just saying!
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Seems it's not unusual for people to be confused about how to get down from the wing, in at least one case people went to the wing tip. I'm pretty sure many people over 65 would be reluctant to jump even 3 foot and I wouldn't be surprised if the curvature of the flaps put people off because they "can't see the edge". Pretty sure if given a choice most peoples natural instinct is to sit on the edge of the drop with feet over it rather than slide off into the "unknown" if you get what I mean.
Jet Emergency Evacuation: 2 Pilots, 8 Crew Suspended | news.outlookindia.com
Jet Airways flight 9W2302 in August 2010...
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...l%206-2010.pdf
Boeing 747 at Pheonix in 2009 and F28 in 2002..
Jet Emergency Evacuation: 2 Pilots, 8 Crew Suspended | news.outlookindia.com
Jet Airways flight 9W2302 in August 2010...
Jency, a passenger, told reporters in Chennai that everyone had panicked when the incident occurred. "You know, we were all asked to jump from the wing side. Just because people jumped from the wing side, and it is too high, many were injured. There were many old people".
Boeing 747 at Pheonix in 2009 and F28 in 2002..
Passengers who evacuated via the left overwing exit were unaware of how to get from the wing down to the ground. Two Safety recommendations are made as a result of this investigation.
The AAIB investigated an incident on 1 April 2002
(EW/C2002/4/1), in which the cabin of a Fokker F28 filled with smoke. An emergency evacuation was carried out, during which passengers using the overwing exits experienced similar problems getting from the wing to the ground. The report stated:
(EW/C2002/4/1), in which the cabin of a Fokker F28 filled with smoke. An emergency evacuation was carried out, during which passengers using the overwing exits experienced similar problems getting from the wing to the ground. The report stated:
‘Having climbed out of the cabin, passengers disembarking from the left overwing exit were unsure of how to descend from the wing to the ground. A number congregated on the wing looking for a way down. Cabin crew eventually noticed the confusion and urged the passengers to get off the wing. Some passengers slid or jumped from the wing tip and leading edge (a drop of some 7 to 8 feet) instead of sliding off the wing trailing edge down the extended flaps.’
Safety Recommendation 2002-42
The CAA and the JAA should review the design, contrast and conspicuity of wing surface markings associated with emergency exits on Public Transport aircraft, with the aim of ensuring that the route to be taken from wing to ground is marked unambiguously.
The CAA and the JAA should review the design, contrast and conspicuity of wing surface markings associated with emergency exits on Public Transport aircraft, with the aim of ensuring that the route to be taken from wing to ground is marked unambiguously.
The Civil Aviation Authority accepted the recommendation, but no response was received from the Joint Aviation Authority.
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Sadly, that will be because they didn't follow their SOP then.
Therefore, perhaps time for ALL airlines to review their SOP.
Personalised Briefing
On the other hand I cannot recall a flight in recent years where, if I have been seated in an exit row I haven't been given a briefing (carriers Air Berlin, Swiss and SATA Internacional).
What I can recall is Alex757 as has intimated, just how many passengers believe the general safety briefing / video is NOT DIRECTED AT THEM and that their newspaper or the inflight mag. is of infinitely more importance than the briefing which might save their lives, and more importantly the lives of others!
On a separate point, what also bothers me is the shear quantity of baggage that is brought into the cabin these days, which, in the event of an emergency must be a severe hindrance to a smooth evacuation.
What I can recall is Alex757 as has intimated, just how many passengers believe the general safety briefing / video is NOT DIRECTED AT THEM and that their newspaper or the inflight mag. is of infinitely more importance than the briefing which might save their lives, and more importantly the lives of others!
On a separate point, what also bothers me is the shear quantity of baggage that is brought into the cabin these days, which, in the event of an emergency must be a severe hindrance to a smooth evacuation.
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I have never seen any cabin crew, ever, give a personalised briefing.
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Have flown Easyjet a few times in the past 6 months and was very surprised to have a very personal and detailed briefing on use of the emergency exit. Not seen that much attention paid to it before. It was very thorough.
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Safety briefing format is outdated
I have never been explicitly told in a Safety Briefing about how to get off the wing after being advised there are overwing exits so Jean, though unthinking about everyone behind her, was simply a victim of a poor briefing in the first place. It may be obvious to this forum that you can jump off the trailing edge but not to the average holiday maker who is encouraged to think of a plane like a bus. Passengers are told in detail about how to put on lifejackets in the unlikely event of a landing in the water (apart from the Hudson River, survivable water landings seem to be a very rare event) whereas they are not instructed in evacuation procedures when emergency evacuations on the ground due to fire, or potential fire, are relatively more common. This focus on water landings even on internal flights is a relic of piston propeller days, and is outdated. The problem is that it is internationally standardised so don't hold your breath for it to change soon although individual carriers could take a lead in adapting it. Is it not about time that safety briefings were updated and include the words "Do not stop to collect your possessions or take luggage with you from the over head locker as as this can impede your exit and that of all the people behind you who also have to evacuate the aircraft safely"? Those passengers sitting nearest the overwing exits who have to open the doors must also be told that they have to jump or slide off the rear edge of the wing and then help others to do so. If our Jean had been asked whether she was able and willing not just to open the doors but also to jump off the wing, she would have been aware of the issue and had the opportunity not to sit in the Exit seat.
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I cannot recall having been on a flight when the emergency exit row briefing was NOT given.
The airlines I use regulary Vueling, BA and Easyjet all do it. On EZ I hold a priority card so often sit in the exit row and it (the briefing) has never been missed. Ok, so not always as pointed as it could be, but never missed. I always reinforce that I have understood it (anyone not responding is liable to find the footprint of a size UK 12 in the small of their back).
Of course some crew members are more adamant about it, that's natural, but it is always given.
On Vueling in particular a cabin crew walks down the aisle to check seat belts/hand luggage on floor etc; and another crew member walks behind to double check. It has always been done as far as I know in a conscientions manner.
On a recent BA flight BCN/LHR a cabin crew member whose name was Jane (well done Jane) told a pax who was talking during the briefing to be quiet. It was done with a polite air of authority.
I am prepared as an ex flying person to take responsibility for myself (checking exit rows, door operations etc; as indeed I do in hotels. It is ingrained in me) but know that many people are not. They may be the same people who can see no harm in following another vehicle too closely or walking under scaffolding - such is humanity. and surely flying is now so safe!
The only question I have is why on BA the window blinds are allowed to be down at landing and take off, as many U.S. airlines allow. No other airline that I regularly fly allows this - seems to me like walking into a blind alley. Oh, yes why still the silly tapes on life jackets?
My point is that most crews do their level best and rarely, in my lengthy experience, miss that much.
The airlines I use regulary Vueling, BA and Easyjet all do it. On EZ I hold a priority card so often sit in the exit row and it (the briefing) has never been missed. Ok, so not always as pointed as it could be, but never missed. I always reinforce that I have understood it (anyone not responding is liable to find the footprint of a size UK 12 in the small of their back).
Of course some crew members are more adamant about it, that's natural, but it is always given.
On Vueling in particular a cabin crew walks down the aisle to check seat belts/hand luggage on floor etc; and another crew member walks behind to double check. It has always been done as far as I know in a conscientions manner.
On a recent BA flight BCN/LHR a cabin crew member whose name was Jane (well done Jane) told a pax who was talking during the briefing to be quiet. It was done with a polite air of authority.
I am prepared as an ex flying person to take responsibility for myself (checking exit rows, door operations etc; as indeed I do in hotels. It is ingrained in me) but know that many people are not. They may be the same people who can see no harm in following another vehicle too closely or walking under scaffolding - such is humanity. and surely flying is now so safe!
The only question I have is why on BA the window blinds are allowed to be down at landing and take off, as many U.S. airlines allow. No other airline that I regularly fly allows this - seems to me like walking into a blind alley. Oh, yes why still the silly tapes on life jackets?
My point is that most crews do their level best and rarely, in my lengthy experience, miss that much.
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I agree with oscarisapc not only on this but the part about the masks dropping down. I think the briefing should mention if it happens the aircraft will normally decend to prevent further panic in a stressful situation. More information is good in all these situations. When smoke occurs in the cockpit/cabin there isnt going to be a chance to repeat the briefing in a rapidly changing situation.
SLFandProud
SLFandProud
Probably the best post I have ever read on PPRuNe.
.........Oh & on the subject of life jackets, don't look under your Ryanair seat, as they are in the overhead panel. Listen to the briefing !!! yea & on how many flights has the PA been so inaudible as to be a waste of time? Certainly 3 of my last 6 flights were inaudible (ZB, EZY & RYR).
Probably the best post I have ever read on PPRuNe.
.........Oh & on the subject of life jackets, don't look under your Ryanair seat, as they are in the overhead panel. Listen to the briefing !!! yea & on how many flights has the PA been so inaudible as to be a waste of time? Certainly 3 of my last 6 flights were inaudible (ZB, EZY & RYR).
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Cwatters
I have the misfortune to have to travel Easyjet about 6-8 times a month and try to get an emergency exit row seat, each time I have the cabin crew have taken the time to give the people at the exit a brief on use of the exit.
I could make a lot of criticism of Easyjet but the emergency procedures are always followed and others above seem to agree wth me.
If the smoke in the jet2 aircraft had been a fire that stupid woman directing other passengers back into the aircraft would have most likely resulted in multiple deaths...........and all because she ignores the safety brief and can't be bothered to read the safety card.
I could make a lot of criticism of Easyjet but the emergency procedures are always followed and others above seem to agree wth me.
If the smoke in the jet2 aircraft had been a fire that stupid woman directing other passengers back into the aircraft would have most likely resulted in multiple deaths...........and all because she ignores the safety brief and can't be bothered to read the safety card.
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Belated response to post 60. You are correct all fire / smoke evacs require an AAIB investigation. The last runway evac I remember was mid 2010... ryr returned with wheel well fire light that did not go out.
Lord Spandex Masher
It beggars belief. She had just left an aircraft cabin that was contaminated with smoke and there she was believing that she knew better than the crew and was directing the pax back inside what could have become an inferno. She was also impeding the exit of those inside wanting to get out. She obviously also thought that remaining standing above a tank full of fuel with a possible fire was a good idea. It is a pity that we have advanced so far, in our old hunter gatherer days such people would have been removed from the gene pool at an early age.
It beggars belief. She had just left an aircraft cabin that was contaminated with smoke and there she was believing that she knew better than the crew and was directing the pax back inside what could have become an inferno. She was also impeding the exit of those inside wanting to get out. She obviously also thought that remaining standing above a tank full of fuel with a possible fire was a good idea. It is a pity that we have advanced so far, in our old hunter gatherer days such people would have been removed from the gene pool at an early age.
