Another MD11 Accident:
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In the previous Narita thread [s] there were quite a few photographs showing amongst other things the very limited amount of remaining control authority left during the landing phase. FACT.
stay safe polemen and poleladies [ooerr went all slasher there!]
stay safe polemen and poleladies [ooerr went all slasher there!]
Last edited by glad rag; 19th Oct 2012 at 16:55.
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A Porsche 911 handles different from a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean one has a design problem over the other.
Putting the engine behind the rear axle was a reasonable idea for the original 36-hp Volkswagen, but it's a dumb way to configure a car with anywhere from 250 to 750+ hp.
It's why Porsche doesn't dare put a truly powerful 911 engine in the mid-engined Boxster. That would make the Boxster such a fabulous car that it would be difficult to continue selling intrinsically flawed 911s.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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While here is a plane which repeatedly has landing incidents at a much higher rate than any other commercial widebody, and we have a group of "superman" who want to imply that you just have to "handle it properly".
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I really Don't Think You know what you're Talking about
Have You flown an MD11 yourself (PMDG's not valid though)
If not, how can You possibly make such comments about the design , and go as far as to state that designers should be jailed.
You should take the word of the people who actually had a chance to fly them,
The innovations in the MD11 were nothing short of marvelous, the MCDU, the FCU, the Automatic operation of the systems etc
Just IMO
Regards
Have You flown an MD11 yourself (PMDG's not valid though)
If not, how can You possibly make such comments about the design , and go as far as to state that designers should be jailed.
You should take the word of the people who actually had a chance to fly them,
The innovations in the MD11 were nothing short of marvelous, the MCDU, the FCU, the Automatic operation of the systems etc
Just IMO
Regards
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I have 5,000 + hours and counting on the MD11 and I find it the best airplane I"ve ever flown. ( DC8 DC10 A300 B727 ) It is an airplane that you have to be very careful on final ( like any other airplane for that matter ) It's design is excellent and like any other airplane it does not allow mistakes.
AlSelgas
Well that explains why they sold 200 planes and, what, 7 or 8 destroyed in landing accidents. How many B727s, DC-8s, and A300 have been written off during touchdowns in VMC conditions?
Well that explains why they sold 200 planes and, what, 7 or 8 destroyed in landing accidents. How many B727s, DC-8s, and A300 have been written off during touchdowns in VMC conditions?
Thread Starter
It's typical of Pilots to defend the Aircraft they fly, a long association with a particular type builds a type of loyalty to it, I understand and completely respect that attitude.
However, the accident record of the MD11 speaks for itself, no other widebody aircraft has had such a record of crashes that can be directly linked to stability issues, this combined with it's inadequate structural redundancy has resulted in numerous catastrophic accidents.
You can deny it all you want but the facts cannot be disputed.
However, the accident record of the MD11 speaks for itself, no other widebody aircraft has had such a record of crashes that can be directly linked to stability issues, this combined with it's inadequate structural redundancy has resulted in numerous catastrophic accidents.
You can deny it all you want but the facts cannot be disputed.
Last edited by stilton; 20th Oct 2012 at 05:03.
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Stilton
Ok by your logic, X amount of people prefer driving as opposed to walking, they defend their decision to drive a car even though driving a car re, sorry I am tired, will pick up on this tomorrow, I am sorry to waste my time.
Ok just one point (invigorated) the pilot culture today is heavy on the modern jets that have not been abandoned by their origional mfgr, they dumb down the driver striving for mindless automation that will one day eliminate their jobs (idiocracy), skills are frowned upon and procedure is key as the industry is liability based. I love the MD-11, I wish half of you could enjoy this glorious craft.
I suggest anyone afraid of flying to give up their day job!!!!!!!!!!
Ok just one point (invigorated) the pilot culture today is heavy on the modern jets that have not been abandoned by their origional mfgr, they dumb down the driver striving for mindless automation that will one day eliminate their jobs (idiocracy), skills are frowned upon and procedure is key as the industry is liability based. I love the MD-11, I wish half of you could enjoy this glorious craft.
I suggest anyone afraid of flying to give up their day job!!!!!!!!!!
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It's typical of Pilots to defend the Aircraft they fly, a long association with a particular type builds a type of loyalty to it, I understand and completely respect that attitude.
However, the accident record of the MD11 speaks for itself, no other widebody aircraft has had such a record of crashes that can be directly linked to stability issues
I actually agree a little bit, stability is twitchy, but it can be handled with adequate pilot skills.
Now what about the record of another design, i.e. the 330/340? Compared to its competitor it's just as abysmal. It can be linked to it's controls and protections design.
Again, true maybe, but I state that based on what?? (Statistics ....)
You see what I mean? Anyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's not necessarily the whole truth.
The Airbus design is religiously upheld here, no design flaw ever even considered. The pilots are always at fault because they are not up to the holy Airbus task.
Give the Maddog the same credit!!
Again, 13 years on it, no hard landing, no bounce.
Aerodynamics are somewhat delicate, agreed, but what a cockpit design and layout!
Last edited by Gretchenfrage; 20th Oct 2012 at 06:41.
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I think what worries most people is not that the MD-11 has a bad record per se but that when something relatively minor happens (such as a bouncing on landing) it can go very badly wrong indeed. It reminds me of the MU-2 - a fine aircraft if flown properly but not terribly forgiving if you are slack
martinair dc-10 at faro
in 1992 did a DC-10-30 of Martinair part go over at Faro...
that was not an MD-11 but demonstrated tendency to do the same
on an approach in bad weather with a hard landing and pitch up
is that so?
that was not an MD-11 but demonstrated tendency to do the same
on an approach in bad weather with a hard landing and pitch up
is that so?
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PW127-B - "The innovations in the MD11 were nothing short of marvelous, the MCDU, the FCU, the Automatic operation of the systems etc"
Just IMO
Regards
Written by a 23 yr Airbus FO. What expertise or knowledge of the MD-11 do you have?
Just IMO
Regards
Written by a 23 yr Airbus FO. What expertise or knowledge of the MD-11 do you have?
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Written by a 23 yr Airbus FO. What expertise or knowledge of the MD-11 do you have?
Written by a almost 60 year old Capt with knowledge of Airbus, Boeing and MD11. BTW do you have MD11 knowledge??
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Only the history of crashes, of the DC-10, MD-11 family, mainly due to design flaws, and engineering short-cuts. It constitutes a SCANDAL of major proportions. And, yes, the Airbus has its hiccups, as did the 737 rudder, but nothing like the DC-10 family over the decades. Sam
Think the nicknames sum them up well
The 10 was known as the death ship and MD 11 - mega death two...
Crap systems design - non locking slats, no protection with loss of hydraulics and the lines routed around engine two and exposed in the landing gear bay.
We were only allowed to operate through the CWS - manual flying banned because two many of the older guys buggared up landings... And as for the noise in the cockpit still suffering with tinnitus.
Besides the above and that our American cousins wouldn't fly with is it was a great aeroplane if flown properly.
Did a visual from 12grand downwind on my only trip to Caracas - spooled the engines up at 700 ft.... Pure delight.
The 10 was known as the death ship and MD 11 - mega death two...
Crap systems design - non locking slats, no protection with loss of hydraulics and the lines routed around engine two and exposed in the landing gear bay.
We were only allowed to operate through the CWS - manual flying banned because two many of the older guys buggared up landings... And as for the noise in the cockpit still suffering with tinnitus.
Besides the above and that our American cousins wouldn't fly with is it was a great aeroplane if flown properly.
Did a visual from 12grand downwind on my only trip to Caracas - spooled the engines up at 700 ft.... Pure delight.
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One more...
Happened a couple days ago - auto land KSEA - center gear collapsed on taxi in - apparently no fault of crew, just a weak airplane...
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/D_1022_N.txt
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/D_1022_N.txt
