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Toxic fumes incapacitate Germanwings crew

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Toxic fumes incapacitate Germanwings crew

Old 30th Sep 2012, 15:27
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Originally Posted by OldBristolFreighter
Surely if this left hand air supply theory is correct then it can only be a matter of time before a cabinful of S.L.F. become incapacitated, if the R.H. system is the same as the L.H.
One thing that has puzzled me in these incidents is the variability of human response to these fume incidents. One person strongly affected, another perhaps not so badly affected.

From this Wikipedia article on TCP Tricresyl phosphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, I picked up the following paragraph:
TCP's mechanism of action is similar to other organophosphates in that it can inhibit the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, leading to a buildup of acetylcholine in the synaptic space. This can lead to hyperactivity in cholinergic neurons in the brain and at neuromuscular junctions in the peripheral nervous system resulting in apoptosis of those cell-types. This is the reason for paralysis and other irreversible neurological problems.
The word 'apoptosis' caught my eye. It means cell death.
In this case of a particular type of cell.

Just theorizing here:
Suppose you were picking up low levels of TCP exposure during you flying career? The damage to your neural system would be small but cumulative. Your body would have time to adapt.

Then add in a high level TCP exposure.
Your actual immediate physiological response to the event would be dependent on the level of exposure and your prior exposure history. (how many functioning cholinergic neurons you still have in reserve.)

Are there any non-toxic TCP alternatives available for engine oil?
Is there any way that one's level of TCP exposure damage could be measured?
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Old 1st Oct 2012, 09:25
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Is more under the carpet then this issue within German Aviation. Time to look closer !
Can we get this in plain English please?
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Old 1st Oct 2012, 10:35
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Originally Posted by OldBristolFreighter
Surely if this left hand air supply theory is correct then it can only be a matter of time before a cabinful of S.L.F. become incapacitated, if the R.H. system is the same as the L.H.
The BFU report is very specific that:
  • technicians who entered the cockpit 15 minutes after the plane had been parked still noticed an unusual smell, distinctive enough to identify it as "definitely not fuel, oil, or electricity, but most likely deicing fluid",
  • except for related announcements by the flight crew, the event was not even noticed in the cabin at all.
I don't know if the BFU will take these witness statements about deicing fluid at face value. But it seems to be a fact that the toxic fumes were confined to the cockpit, so understanding how that could be would help to narrow down their possible origin. Frustratingly, the report doesn't even attempt to do so.

I looked at the A319 air conditioning systems manual available at smartcockpit.com, but I don't think I really understand it. For example, it says that when the zone controller primary channel fails: "Pack 1 controls the cockpit temperature. Pack 2 controls the FWD and AFT cabin temperatures." But I can't reconcile that with the general flow chart at the beginning of the document, where it looks like the output of pack 1 and pack 2 is always combined first, before it is distributed to the three air conditioning zones. Oh well.
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Old 1st Oct 2012, 11:00
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ITF Campaign

Here the link to the new ITF campaign on cabin air quality.
International Transport Workers' Federation: Aircraft air quality
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Old 1st Oct 2012, 11:43
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Concerning COC /CABIN, Pack1/Pack2.

There may be a different situation concerning smoke. Not only smoke out of the avionic compartment, but due to different installation of ducts etc.

I remember a cold winter day on 727 when soon after takeoff with wing AI ON the cabin was filled with white "smoke". Immediate call of the FA in the back. Smoke was so dense you couldn't see them from the cockpit.

Reason: wing anti ice turns on with air/grd sensor. Some gallons of water/coffe whatever fluid splashed out of the cabin floor on the wing anti ice ducts. A hose of the galley was disconnected and so the fluids accumulated.

In the Cockpit and fwd cabin the air was clear.
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 12:07
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Chemistry I assume it is checked routinely


Never assume this......perhaps it needs to be checked??

A long campaign has been running by an ex employee of a large UK airline.....

More Q`s than answers I gather.
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 10:30
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Recent developments

A little update from the news front: The story has gathered some momentum recently, with the inevitable result of politicians getting involved.

According to media reports, there have been several similar incidents in the past 12 months, with flights being aborted or crews falling ill. Lufthansa has confirmed at least to similar incidents this year, among them an A330.

Meanwhile, German magazine "Der Spiegel" reports that oil is likely causing these incidents, not de-icing-fluid. The magazine quotes from documents by a Lufthansa aviation physician saying that "presumably flue gas and TCP inhalation" caused the Germanwings incident.

Lufthansa seems to be aware of the issue, as it's currently modifying engines, especially of its A380s. Also, the carrier is sponsoring development of a diagnostic tool to detect toxic fumes in cabin air.

German pilots union "Cockpit" demands immediate action by carriers. The "Bundestag" is set to deal with the issue in parliament this week. "Government has to acknowledge that there is a problem it can no longer ignore", a MP for the Green party is quoted.
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 15:29
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Also, the carrier is sponsoring development of a diagnostic tool to detect toxic fumes in cabin air.
Yea

Science to the rescue .... maybe

We seem to get perpetually wrapped around the axel (or conveyor belt) arguing about emotional beliefs that 99.9% of us don't understand their technical basis (greenhouse gases, volcanic ash, etc. cause-magnitude and effects )
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 17:40
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FO - Captain, the cabin air toxic fume detector is going off! What shall we do?

Captain - Either turn the engines off or hold your breath!

FO - Err.. How about winding the windows down?

Captain - You been talking to that Mitt Romney guy? (Cough, cough...)
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 22:37
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Oil was the factor. And cockpit's 'demands' have been respectfully accepted.
There is an interim order to fit 6 sensors(initially), through the length of its small bus fleet initially, followed by the blue whale.
Don't know if that will help matters but it is a start.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 08:45
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TCP developments

Digging in several sites I have found a press report in "Die Welt" from 2010 and one in "Der Spiegel" from 2011. Here the links - unfortunately only in German - couldn´t find the English version.
"Es gibt weniger giftige Alternativen" - Nachrichten Welt Print - Wissen - DIE WELT
and
DER SPIEGEL*9/2011 - Gestank alter Socken
Especially the interview in "Die Welt" is interesting since the scientist interviewed already in the mid 50`s performed a study on the tocix potential of TCP. He found that there is in fact no tolerance value acceptable because of the damage even smallest amounts of that chemical does to nerve tracts.
To avoid further possible poisoning of crews and passengers there seems to be only two possibilities.
Nr. 1 Avoid usage of TCP in Jet Engine Oil at all, use a safe substitute
or
Nr. 2 Copy Boeings recent decision to delete bleed air from air supply in
airliners and use seperate compressors and filters, like they did in the new
B 787.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 08:57
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FO - Captain, the cabin air toxic fume detector is going off! What shall we do?
How about donning oxygen masks before you both pass out and dig a smoking hole in the ground? Of course this is only a stop-gap measure, not spilling air from the engines any more is the only definitive solution.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 09:16
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If this did not reoccur on subsequent flights....How would you suspect Oil fumes thru the bleed air.....It looks like fumes from a leak cargo....was there a DG cargo on board.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 12:15
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The BFU report says that maintenance actions carried out after the incident include:
  • cockpit instrument ventilation fans were replaced, however no contamination was found
  • no. 1 engine: air intake area was examined, without any findings, engine core washed
  • flight crew oxygen masks replaced
  • engine ground run in accordance with maintenance manual, no smell on board observed
I admit that item #2 kind of answers my previous question: Apparently there is a scenario where contaminated air from the engines can affect the cockpit only (and if so, then egine no. 1 is at fault).

What I don't get is how Mr. Handwerg of the Cockpit association can be so sure that fumes from engine oil and not deicing fluid are to blame. He points out the low blood oxygen levels, but IMO that just proves that both crew were poisoned by something. And even regarding the creatine kinase values, Der Spiegel has to admit that the experts that they asked (physicians at the university hospital Hamburg-Eppendorf and this "society for clinical chemistry and laboratory medicine") cannot conclude anything specific from it.

Originally Posted by Gestapo
Oil was the factor. And cockpit's 'demands' have been respectfully accepted.
There is an interim order to fit 6 sensors(initially), through the length of its small bus fleet initially, followed by the blue whale.
Don't know if that will help matters but it is a start.
Sensors capable of detecting TCP? I hadn't heard of that before, but if that's an actual option, it sounds like a good idea.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 13:13
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Trycresyl phosphate is neurotoxin. It wouldn't cause blood oxygen saturation to drop.
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Old 4th Oct 2012, 13:30
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I do not know where the suprise on all this comes from. The dirty sock smell has been apparent on aircraft for over 30 years or more. The most common affected aircraft were the B757 and the BAe146 series of aircraft It was common on the ALF502 engine where one of the seals used to fail, a lot of history on this in the Australian press going back to the 1980's.
Manufacturers always deny there is a problem, blame maintenance practises, but fault lies in the design of the engine air system. Hopefully, with the 787 which is bleedless, this will go away, but not on older aircraft.
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 07:59
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Trycresyl phosphate is neurotoxin. It wouldn't cause blood oxygen saturation to drop.
Carbon monoxide could do that (and tunnel vision) but I couldn't google up any reports of it being a known issue on jets (lots on GA/prop). However it seems some are concerned about CO...

http://www.holidaytravelwatch.net/wp...in-the-air.pdf

The AAIB did not dismiss the notion that the crew and passengers of the Birmingham flight were not exposed to CO (they could not find CO at any appreciable level), but did concede that exposure to neurotoxins or CO could produce the same symptoms.
In 2002, a Professor Nazaroff testified before the US House of Representatives, concluding that “During abnormal operating conditions, exposure to engine oils, hydraulic fluids, and their degradation products (such as CO and Formaldehyde) might occur. No data have definitely linked exposure to these compounds with reported effects in cabin occupants”.

He also called for CO monitors to be placed in cabins and for an enquiry into the ‘toxicity’ of the constituents of the oils or their ‘degradation products’.
The few papers I found on cabin air quality all seem to report CO within FAA limits.

Do you have CO monitors? Credit card size CO detectors are available on places like ebay.
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 09:02
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call me skeptical

they might already have been checking for toxins in the crash pilots, but if we put ourselves in their (not the pilots!) place, would we want to let that out and remove our favourite default cause of any aviation accident?

why then we would have to admit that the aircraft manufacturer or owner might have some culpability in said accidents! (translate into loss of money)

Last edited by stator vane; 5th Oct 2012 at 09:03.
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 19:55
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@cwatters

the report says oxygen bloob saturisation quickly recovers under medical treatment of the pilots. So definetly no CO.
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Old 5th Oct 2012, 20:25
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I don't think that the "De-icing fluid" theory makes any sense. If the event had happen at the begining of the flight, may be, but at the end of something like 1 hour flight, I don't think so.

There seems to be quite a remarkable coincidence in terms of Engines involded in this fume events.

-the B757, which seems to have a "tradition" on the subject, has RR engines. (It is also powered with PW engines but I'm not aware of this engines causing any fume events)
-this Germanwings A319 has IAE engines which, one of the manufactors contributing to this engine is .... RR. (I believe that the IAE also has MTU on it, and this is probably the reason why Germanwings switched from CFM to IAE)
-the A330s of Lufthansa have .... you guess it right .... RR engines.

Wondering if RR is overdoing the lubrication of its engines?
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