ICAO publishes study on Phraseology
I once flew with an Indian captain. He told me that there were no less than 94 different languages and dialects being used on the Indian Sub Continent. The English language was the only common thread between all of them and, without it, they simply would not be able to communicate with one another.
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Just wanted to ask if B738driver is gonna learn Russian then...
Basic language isn't enough to understand conversation between two native speakers on fast speed, or are you going to "Excusez-moi, je ne comprends pas. Pouvez vous répéter s'il vous plait?" each time you don't understand something when on approach to CDG? I don't think someone that just learned basic language will have time to do that.
Should long-haul EK driver (for example) learn Chinese, Portuguese, French, Japanese etc..?
Anyway, there are procedures, lets stick to them. Please?
Basic language isn't enough to understand conversation between two native speakers on fast speed, or are you going to "Excusez-moi, je ne comprends pas. Pouvez vous répéter s'il vous plait?" each time you don't understand something when on approach to CDG? I don't think someone that just learned basic language will have time to do that.
Should long-haul EK driver (for example) learn Chinese, Portuguese, French, Japanese etc..?
Anyway, there are procedures, lets stick to them. Please?
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How true. Spain cannot even get itself together to introduce it as a compulsory part of the school curriculum. Every country is rightly proud of its language and has an absolute right to use it. However, when there are issues of safety, a common language and phrasing must be agreed and taught. This does not mean that, for example, Spain's dominant language should be anything other than Spanish. It does mean that English (or another agreed universal language) should be taught as part of the learning curriculum.
Last edited by ap08; 27th Aug 2012 at 15:25.
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Or maybe I've watched too much Star Trek...
Will all be great - until the batteries run out and no one can talk to anyone...
Russia has not been conquered by any english speaking country and therefore we will not make it compulsory to study foreign languages "as part of the learning curriculum"
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perhaps when the Martians invade
Must say that on my last, which turned out to really be my last, trip into China, I was quite impressed with the level of English spoken by the Chinese controllers in the major cities and the upper airways structure.
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Surely a "Single European Sky" will mean a single language?
As it caters for 'customers' (as SESAR ANSP managers are keen to point out to ATCOs that aircrew are), from The Americas, then English is the obvious choice.
Standardization, innit?
As it caters for 'customers' (as SESAR ANSP managers are keen to point out to ATCOs that aircrew are), from The Americas, then English is the obvious choice.
Standardization, innit?
Last edited by ZOOKER; 27th Aug 2012 at 20:22.
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BABEL BABBLE
Perhaps if French ATC controllers were given a course in how to say two as in tu as in too and three as in tree then some of the confusion would disappear overnight, mes amis...........?????
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Easystreet
"England hasn't been invaded let alone conquered etc"
How about October 14th 1066. Defeat of King Harold and his English army by Duke William II of Normandy at Sentiac Hill, Hastings.
Didn't stop the English language, as it was at the time, remaining predominant though.
"England hasn't been invaded let alone conquered etc"
How about October 14th 1066. Defeat of King Harold and his English army by Duke William II of Normandy at Sentiac Hill, Hastings.
Didn't stop the English language, as it was at the time, remaining predominant though.
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Quebec is similar to France and there are a lot of American and international flights into Montreal every day. ATC speaks very good English but often speaks French to francophone crews so it can hinder SA of some of the non French speakers.
In the VFR world, most local pilots speak/understand both English and French so you hear both on the en-route frequencies and i would guess over 90% understand the other language perfectly well.
However, there are a lot of Chinese (and other nationalities) students in Quebec whose English is OK but heavily accented. When i am flying VFR with bilingual locals, they really struggle to understand what the Chinese are saying (in English) although for anyone who has spent time in China, it is pretty clear.
To my mind, whether in IFR or VFR, an effort should be made to use one language (English) even between two people who share a common other language. We should be concerned with everyone's SA, not just our own.
In the VFR world, most local pilots speak/understand both English and French so you hear both on the en-route frequencies and i would guess over 90% understand the other language perfectly well.
However, there are a lot of Chinese (and other nationalities) students in Quebec whose English is OK but heavily accented. When i am flying VFR with bilingual locals, they really struggle to understand what the Chinese are saying (in English) although for anyone who has spent time in China, it is pretty clear.
To my mind, whether in IFR or VFR, an effort should be made to use one language (English) even between two people who share a common other language. We should be concerned with everyone's SA, not just our own.
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As far as I understand it ICAO SARPS are not compulsary, any member can publish a difference and thats the end of.
To me the worst abusers of the system are 1. The UK. Its our language and we cannot even follow ICAO. 2. The USA. You use our language and have even more differences. 3. Australia same as above.
Before we English speakers start preaching to the rest of the world lets get our own houses in order and accept the SARPS.
Any International language school will tell you that to learn conversational English will take 2 years of total immersion. (live in an English speaking country).
To me the worst abusers of the system are 1. The UK. Its our language and we cannot even follow ICAO. 2. The USA. You use our language and have even more differences. 3. Australia same as above.
Before we English speakers start preaching to the rest of the world lets get our own houses in order and accept the SARPS.
Any International language school will tell you that to learn conversational English will take 2 years of total immersion. (live in an English speaking country).
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Perhaps we could speak in numbers. Numbers are universal (except for ancient Romans) across the World and work well when ordering food or wine.
Therefore: 1 = Request pushback, 2 = Cleared pushback, 3 = Request taxi to hold, 4 = Cleared taxi to hold, etc.
Analysing the above it becomes clear that Odd numbers become a 'Request' and Even numbers a 'Response'. Not sure what the response to Easythere 69 would be though!
Meanwhile I found the following book very interesting:
The Language Instinct is a 1994 book by Steven Pinker. Written for a general audience, it argues that humans are born with an innate capacity for language.
.
Therefore: 1 = Request pushback, 2 = Cleared pushback, 3 = Request taxi to hold, 4 = Cleared taxi to hold, etc.
Analysing the above it becomes clear that Odd numbers become a 'Request' and Even numbers a 'Response'. Not sure what the response to Easythere 69 would be though!
Meanwhile I found the following book very interesting:
The Language Instinct is a 1994 book by Steven Pinker. Written for a general audience, it argues that humans are born with an innate capacity for language.
.
I actually am amazed by the lack of standardization in the countries where English is no problem.
Why are there differences between FAA, UK CAA, Eurocontrol and Icao??
Maybe get a straight line on hat is "standard" and take it from there..
Why are there differences between FAA, UK CAA, Eurocontrol and Icao??
Maybe get a straight line on hat is "standard" and take it from there..
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This subject comes back every year on PPrune, and inevitably comes down to French on the frequency,and ends up in "them against us" .
And every year I come up here to tell the same simple things :
Bad, wrong or lack of using standard Phraseology has killed, and will kill far,far more than dual language use.
Yes a single language would be great , like peace on earth and a single loving religion for everyone.
In absence of that stick to Standard ICAO phraseology , best thing so far.
Last thing : for info , in CDG, it is not the controllers that object to English only ( most would prefer that ) but it is Air France Pilots unions...but with AF current situation, the problem might solve itself .. ( bad joke unfortunately )
And every year I come up here to tell the same simple things :
Bad, wrong or lack of using standard Phraseology has killed, and will kill far,far more than dual language use.
Yes a single language would be great , like peace on earth and a single loving religion for everyone.
In absence of that stick to Standard ICAO phraseology , best thing so far.
Last thing : for info , in CDG, it is not the controllers that object to English only ( most would prefer that ) but it is Air France Pilots unions...but with AF current situation, the problem might solve itself .. ( bad joke unfortunately )
In 1976 BEA lost a Trident in a collision over Zagreb which could have probably avoided if English had been used.
We haven't come far since then especially in the south of France where I have painfully listened to a couple of approach controllers who had difficulty in understanding Korean, French, American, Scandinavian and Irish pilots communications in English.
I worked for a Swiss German company - Switzerland has four official languages and we did everything in english except cabin crew briefings.
It worked well except for some of the militia pilots whose english was on a par with the French - inadequate but as their mates tested them they got through the system.
One language - anything else is pure stupidity.
We haven't come far since then especially in the south of France where I have painfully listened to a couple of approach controllers who had difficulty in understanding Korean, French, American, Scandinavian and Irish pilots communications in English.
I worked for a Swiss German company - Switzerland has four official languages and we did everything in english except cabin crew briefings.
It worked well except for some of the militia pilots whose english was on a par with the French - inadequate but as their mates tested them they got through the system.
One language - anything else is pure stupidity.