AF passengers asked to pay fuel bill in cash
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So just to wrap it up - an AF flight safely diverted to an airport where many airlines are still scheduling flights and operating safely in and out of daily. (Emirates, Another unmentionable large airline based in Abu Dhabi, Royal Jordanian, Egypt Air, Ethiopian, Air Arabia to name a few) All very familiar with the situation in Syria. They had a spot of bother with the credit card and then flew to a more passenger friendly destination? Interesting
Last edited by Stall Inducer; 18th Aug 2012 at 10:26.
A lot easier to fly to a scheduled, but potentially dodgy, destination with most likely round trip fuel to return to dep airport than to be forced into a diversion because you and/or your company alternate fuel planning has failed to take into account the likely air traffic restrictions and delays.
Just the same further west diverting from say Alicante to Madrid and being held down below optimum div level by Spanish controllers working to rule.
I wonder if AF are now carrying LCA div fuel?
Just the same further west diverting from say Alicante to Madrid and being held down below optimum div level by Spanish controllers working to rule.
I wonder if AF are now carrying LCA div fuel?
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They just considered for some time the idea of asking cash from passengers, as the credit cards were not going through, and AF offices have been closed for the last 6 months, the flights to DAM having been discontinued due to the events we are all familiar of.
That's doesn't mean either DAM airport is under fire...
DAM is really close to BEY, really...
Yes, the French have some acquaintances with the area, having lost 58 soldiers in Beyrouth in a suicide bombing on October 23, 1983 - two minutes before another similar attack killed 241 US Marines a couple of miles away.
And also Syria and Lebanon were defended with some success against attacking British and Australian forces in 1941.
Now back to the event : well, a diverting decision is always keeping people busy in the cockpit, and even more other people after, who were not part of the issue, as we all know.
Eventually they managed to find quite quickly a channel to convey the cash for the fuel, so eventually no passengers were disturbed.
That's doesn't mean either DAM airport is under fire...
DAM is really close to BEY, really...
Yes, the French have some acquaintances with the area, having lost 58 soldiers in Beyrouth in a suicide bombing on October 23, 1983 - two minutes before another similar attack killed 241 US Marines a couple of miles away.
And also Syria and Lebanon were defended with some success against attacking British and Australian forces in 1941.
Now back to the event : well, a diverting decision is always keeping people busy in the cockpit, and even more other people after, who were not part of the issue, as we all know.
Eventually they managed to find quite quickly a channel to convey the cash for the fuel, so eventually no passengers were disturbed.
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I think Air France will have to explain:
- was Damascus a designated alternate for this flight?
- if not, which were the alternates and why there was not enough fuel to reach either?
- was Damascus a designated alternate for this flight?
- if not, which were the alternates and why there was not enough fuel to reach either?
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It would help a hell of a lot if you followed the thread from the start.
- no, Damascus is not a listed alternate. The reason they ended up there and not in a pile of dirt in the desert with empty tanks, is that the syrian controlers refused them to fly the route usually taken into account by flight planning for a diversion to Aman, puting the captain in a no win situation.
- I personally would have chose Larnaca for this area past Beyrouth is just a hornest nest and nothing is bound to go right under normal circumstances, let alone with the civil war, sorry, the slight civil unrests, going on in Syria.
- Does Air France twist its crew's arm , Ryan Air's style to minimize the the fuel up lift ? Certainly not. It's up to the captain's decision who by now, must feel a slight discomfort under the seat of his pants.
- Am I happy not to be in his shoes ? You bet !!! For now, very senior governement members are asking questions, sorry, demanding explainations.
- Is this very embarrassing ?
- no, Damascus is not a listed alternate. The reason they ended up there and not in a pile of dirt in the desert with empty tanks, is that the syrian controlers refused them to fly the route usually taken into account by flight planning for a diversion to Aman, puting the captain in a no win situation.
- I personally would have chose Larnaca for this area past Beyrouth is just a hornest nest and nothing is bound to go right under normal circumstances, let alone with the civil war, sorry, the slight civil unrests, going on in Syria.
- Does Air France twist its crew's arm , Ryan Air's style to minimize the the fuel up lift ? Certainly not. It's up to the captain's decision who by now, must feel a slight discomfort under the seat of his pants.
- Am I happy not to be in his shoes ? You bet !!! For now, very senior governement members are asking questions, sorry, demanding explainations.
- Is this very embarrassing ?
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Avion d'Air France dérouté sur Damas: une «énorme bêtise», selon Laurent Fabius - Libération
On board the aircraft were the French ambassador to Lebanon and several lebanese personalities known to be hostile to the Syrian regime and who could have been in real trouble if their presence in Damascus had been known.
On board the aircraft were the French ambassador to Lebanon and several lebanese personalities known to be hostile to the Syrian regime and who could have been in real trouble if their presence in Damascus had been known.
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Borrowing from the SLF.
How much authority has the captain actually got to bind the company? If I wanted to invest in AF I would have bought the shares, not made them a loan to complete the flight that I had already paid for. Time for hard bargaining, but what chance would I have of getting the bargain honoured when AF's aeroplane and employees were no longer at hazard? Anyone know?
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) and no immediately available hotel accommodation. So rather than inconvenience their passengers by asking them to bunk down in the terminal building for a few hours, AF chose to fly them into a war zone to refuel, then take them back to an island they'd passed on the way and finally deliver them to their destination twenty-four hours late ... Is it any wonder they're bankrupt?
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Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Damas: Fabius critique Air France
The French Minister for Foreign Affairs, Lauren Fabius, today criticised Air France for refuelling one of its aircraft at Damascus. .... "To land at Damascus was to endanger the safety of the people on board (...) especially the Lebanese who were wanted by the Syrian authorities," said Laurent Fabius on RTL. ... "Making decisions in these circumstances is complex, but to land at Damascus during a serious conflict, you will agree with me, was not the most sensible decision - and I'm being diplomatic," he added.
Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Vol drout: l'avion n'avait pas le choix
In response to the criticism by Laurent Fabius ..., Air France explained today that Syrian ATC gave its Paris-Beirut flight no choice other than to land at Damascus.
...
The chain of events left the commander with no choice, indicated the company. As the [flight] approached Beirut, the situation deteriorated. ... Air France therefore decided to reroute the aircraft to Amman, crossing Syrian airspace. Amman is the alternate airport when Beirut is unavailable. The Jordanian capital is a regular destination for Air France with a crew based there.
But the flight crew were not granted the requested route by Syrian ATC. "The controller even asked for a change of heading of 270° instead of making a simple 90° turn," explained Air France. "The crew found themselves in an emergency situation with enough fuel to land at Damascus. They no longer had enough to reach Amman."
Le ministre français des Affaires étrangères, Laurent Fabius, a critiqué aujourd'hui Air France pour l'escale à Damas d'un des ses avions pour se ravitailler en carburant.
Un vol Air France parti mercredi soir de Paris pour Beyrouth avec 174 passagers à bord a dû être dérouté pour raisons de sécurité et a fait escale dans la capitale syrienne pendant deux heures pour faire le plein de kérosène.
"Se poser à Damas, c'était exposer la sécurité des gens qui étaient à l'intérieur de l'avion (...) notamment des personnes du Liban qui étaient recherchées par le régime syrien", a dit Laurent Fabius sur RTL. "C'était extrêmement dangereux (...) "Les décisions dans ces circonstances sont compliquées à prendre mais en plein conflit, se poser à Damas, vous conviendrez avec moi que ce n'était pas la décision la plus pertinente, et je suis diplomate", a-t-il ajouté.
Un vol Air France parti mercredi soir de Paris pour Beyrouth avec 174 passagers à bord a dû être dérouté pour raisons de sécurité et a fait escale dans la capitale syrienne pendant deux heures pour faire le plein de kérosène.
"Se poser à Damas, c'était exposer la sécurité des gens qui étaient à l'intérieur de l'avion (...) notamment des personnes du Liban qui étaient recherchées par le régime syrien", a dit Laurent Fabius sur RTL. "C'était extrêmement dangereux (...) "Les décisions dans ces circonstances sont compliquées à prendre mais en plein conflit, se poser à Damas, vous conviendrez avec moi que ce n'était pas la décision la plus pertinente, et je suis diplomate", a-t-il ajouté.
Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Vol drout: l'avion n'avait pas le choix
Air France a expliqué aujourd'hui que des difficultés avec le contrôle aérien syrien n'avaient pas laissé à son vol Paris-Beyrouth d'autre choix que se poser à Damas mercredi, en réponse aux critiques du ministre des Affaires étrangères Laurent Fabius contre cette décision.
N'ayant pu se poser à Beyrouth, un Airbus A330 d'Air France avait dû [/SIZE] [SIZE=2]faire le plein à Damas avant de se poser sur l'aéroport chypriote de Larnaca, où les 174 passagers avaient été pris en charge. Ils sont arrivés à destination jeudi.
L'enchaînement des événements n'a pas laissé le choix au commandant de bord, a indiqué la compagnie. Alors que l'A330 d'Air France approchait de Beyrouth, la situation s'est détériorée. La route de l'aéroport, sur laquelle des milliers d'enlèvements ont eu lieu pendant la guerre civile (1975-1990) était coupée par des hommes en armes. Air France a donc décidé de dérouter l'appareil sur Amman, en traversant l'espace aérien syrien. Amman est l'aérodrome de dégagement prévu lorsque Beyrouth n'est pas disponible. La capitale jordanienne est une destination régulière d'Air France, qui y dispose d'une équipe en permanence.
Mais l'équipage n'a pas obtenu du contrôleur aérien syrien la trajectoire qu'il escomptait. "Le contrôleur lui a même demandé de changer de cap à 270°, au lieu de faire simplement un virage à 90°", a expliqué Air France. "L'équipage s'est retrouvé en situation d'urgence, avec assez de carburant pour se poser à Damas. On n'en avait plus assez pour aller à Amman".
N'ayant pu se poser à Beyrouth, un Airbus A330 d'Air France avait dû [/SIZE] [SIZE=2]faire le plein à Damas avant de se poser sur l'aéroport chypriote de Larnaca, où les 174 passagers avaient été pris en charge. Ils sont arrivés à destination jeudi.
L'enchaînement des événements n'a pas laissé le choix au commandant de bord, a indiqué la compagnie. Alors que l'A330 d'Air France approchait de Beyrouth, la situation s'est détériorée. La route de l'aéroport, sur laquelle des milliers d'enlèvements ont eu lieu pendant la guerre civile (1975-1990) était coupée par des hommes en armes. Air France a donc décidé de dérouter l'appareil sur Amman, en traversant l'espace aérien syrien. Amman est l'aérodrome de dégagement prévu lorsque Beyrouth n'est pas disponible. La capitale jordanienne est une destination régulière d'Air France, qui y dispose d'une équipe en permanence.
Mais l'équipage n'a pas obtenu du contrôleur aérien syrien la trajectoire qu'il escomptait. "Le contrôleur lui a même demandé de changer de cap à 270°, au lieu de faire simplement un virage à 90°", a expliqué Air France. "L'équipage s'est retrouvé en situation d'urgence, avec assez de carburant pour se poser à Damas. On n'en avait plus assez pour aller à Amman".
...
The chain of events left the commander with no choice, indicated the company. As the [flight] approached Beirut, the situation deteriorated. ... Air France therefore decided to reroute the aircraft to Amman, crossing Syrian airspace. Amman is the alternate airport when Beirut is unavailable. The Jordanian capital is a regular destination for Air France with a crew based there.
But the flight crew were not granted the requested route by Syrian ATC. "The controller even asked for a change of heading of 270° instead of making a simple 90° turn," explained Air France. "The crew found themselves in an emergency situation with enough fuel to land at Damascus. They no longer had enough to reach Amman."
Last edited by CelticRambler; 20th Aug 2012 at 18:10.
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To me it is obvious: minumum fuel policy, like in our company.
Problem: this (almost) works in civilized areas of the world, but is not realistic elsewhere...
Problem: this (almost) works in civilized areas of the world, but is not realistic elsewhere...
Last edited by LEM; 26th Aug 2012 at 10:34.
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Me Myself
Indeed .. and it is odd that this plane change the route .. while before him and after him many planes landed in Beirut with no problems
More (given the identity of some passengers) choosing to divert to Damascus was the worst choice!
It's something weird with this event
It would help a hell of a lot if you followed the thread from the start.
More (given the identity of some passengers) choosing to divert to Damascus was the worst choice!
It's something weird with this event
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Indeed .. and it is odd that this plane change the route .. while before him and after him many planes landed in Beirut with no problems
More (given the identity of some passengers) choosing to divert to Damascus
More (given the identity of some passengers) choosing to divert to Damascus
You might want to read the OP and the link provided there. The reason why the flight diverted was that the natives were somewhat restless in Beirut that day and getting to/from the airport via surface routes was difficult.
10 days and 35 posts later still no plausible explanation why they did not do a 180 and go back to LCA which was substantially closer than AMM.
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The reason why the flight diverted was that the natives were somewhat restless in Beirut that day and getting to/from the airport via surface routes was difficult.
Many planes landed before and after AF plane in Beyrouth
More ... it's dangerous events in Syria than a simple road blockade in Beyrouth and more .. the french political position about Syria is not a friendly one
Knowing all this (and knowing the identity of some of the passengers) Damascus was to be avoid at all costs
By landing in Damascus AF has put the lives of some (if not all) passengers in danger
Last edited by jcjeant; 26th Aug 2012 at 15:30.
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I respectfully suggest you check that map again, Sir.
7Nm is not why I call substantial.
Having determined that LCA is only marginally closer than AMM, the fact that Amman is a regular destination for AF (unlike Larnaca) perhaps played a role in the choice, don't you think?
7Nm is not why I call substantial.
Having determined that LCA is only marginally closer than AMM, the fact that Amman is a regular destination for AF (unlike Larnaca) perhaps played a role in the choice, don't you think?
Originally Posted by AlphaZuluRomeo
I respectfully suggest you check that map again, Sir.
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Tell us more, please.
Vol Air France Paris-Beyrouth : "Se poser à Damas était la seule solution" - PROCHE-ORIENT - FRANCE 24
Face aux critiques de la diplomatie française, il tient à rappeler que "la cellule de crise du Quai d’Orsay était en contact avec Air France tout au long du déroutement, et que l’ambassadeur de France au Liban était fortuitement présent dans l’appareil et a pu s’entretenir avec le commandant de bord". Joint par FRANCE 24, le porte-parole du Quai d’Orsay n’a pas souhaité donner plus d’informations que les déclarations faites par Laurent Fabius.
Faced with criticism of French diplomacy, he cautions that "the crisis of the Quai d'Orsay was in contact with Air France throughout the trap, and France's ambassador to Lebanon was fortuitously present in the device and was able to speak with the captain. "Contacted by FRANCE 24, the spokesman of the Quai d'Orsay did not want to give more information than the statements made by Laurent Fabius.
Faced with criticism of French diplomacy, he cautions that "the crisis of the Quai d'Orsay was in contact with Air France throughout the trap, and France's ambassador to Lebanon was fortuitously present in the device and was able to speak with the captain. "Contacted by FRANCE 24, the spokesman of the Quai d'Orsay did not want to give more information than the statements made by Laurent Fabius.
Laurent Fabius reproche par ailleurs à Air France d’avoir mis en danger les passagers du vol, au nombre desquels figuraient des personnalités libanaises hostiles au régime de Bachar al-Assad. "Imaginez un instant que les autorités syriennes aient fouillé l'avion et vérifié les identités", s’est ainsi indigné le ministre. La liste de ces personnes n’a pas été rendue publique.
Laurent Fabius also criticizes Air France to endangering the passengers on the flight, who included Lebanese personalities hostile to the regime of Bashar al-Assad. "Imagine for a moment that the Syrian authorities searched the plane and checked the identities", and has outraged the Minister. The list of these individuals has not been made public.
Laurent Fabius also criticizes Air France to endangering the passengers on the flight, who included Lebanese personalities hostile to the regime of Bashar al-Assad. "Imagine for a moment that the Syrian authorities searched the plane and checked the identities", and has outraged the Minister. The list of these individuals has not been made public.