A Fair Tax on Flying
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Oh I love assumptions on these threads. Leftbank did you have a few to drink when you showed up during your research visits at various UK airports?
Air traffic in the last published rolling 12 months shows that traffic grew by 2.3% following a growth of 5% in 2011, while capacity grew by 6%.
The tax has no effect on growth, so I say, increase the lot of them. 13 quid for a EU departure is a joke, most locos charge more for baggage and card fees.
Of course this government, or any for that matter is not going to abolish APD, an easy to collect tax that has no bearing on passenger numbers and one that the business community does not pay anyways so has no bearing on economic growth. So let's tax the luxury of foreign holidays a bit more I reckon as a penalty for spending pounds oversees, there must surely be a level to which APD can be increased that would have little to no effect on traffic but would have an effect on domestic spending.
Air traffic in the last published rolling 12 months shows that traffic grew by 2.3% following a growth of 5% in 2011, while capacity grew by 6%.
The tax has no effect on growth, so I say, increase the lot of them. 13 quid for a EU departure is a joke, most locos charge more for baggage and card fees.
Of course this government, or any for that matter is not going to abolish APD, an easy to collect tax that has no bearing on passenger numbers and one that the business community does not pay anyways so has no bearing on economic growth. So let's tax the luxury of foreign holidays a bit more I reckon as a penalty for spending pounds oversees, there must surely be a level to which APD can be increased that would have little to no effect on traffic but would have an effect on domestic spending.
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I have no idea where this lunatic idea of hypothecated taxes comes from - the idea that tax on something must be used only on that industry/group of people
the Govt have to find enough money to run the country - they normally try and do it in the easiest and cheapest way that also minimises the chances of evasion - hence PAYE, Fuel Duty, VAT, APD etc
it's like everything else - when only a few people do something it's not worth the effort to tax them - but when it gets to millions of holiday flights a year............
I'm sure they'd be happy to replace it with a fuel tax on jet fuel........
the Govt have to find enough money to run the country - they normally try and do it in the easiest and cheapest way that also minimises the chances of evasion - hence PAYE, Fuel Duty, VAT, APD etc
it's like everything else - when only a few people do something it's not worth the effort to tax them - but when it gets to millions of holiday flights a year............
I'm sure they'd be happy to replace it with a fuel tax on jet fuel........
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I'm sure they'd be happy to replace it with a fuel tax on jet fuel
Heathrow Harry, are you telling us that there is not already a tax on jet fuel?
In a previous job I was charged with monitoring jet fuel prices domestically and in Europe for our flight crews to use when deciding where and how much fuel to purchase (1). European taxes on jet fuel were among the highest we encountered, resulting in higher total fuel prices. I suspect that jet fuel is already heavily taxed multiple times all the way along the chain from exploration and extraction through the delivery hose and now extending to the discharged gasses escaping out the exhaust end of the turbojet.
Earlier you mentioned that businesses simply "write off" taxes paid as some sort answer to those who complain about high taxation. When the taxing authority relieves my enterprise of 30% of our revenue then taxes me additionally on the remaining 70% left to cover the cost of goods sold, wages & benefits, research & product development and profit (returned to investors) I assure you that not taxing me on the original 30% is not a "gift".
This is a serious problem between people who work for government and those who are employed outside the public dole. Recently I was listening to an Air Traffic Control specialist address a group of young people assembled for a career day. This individual mentioned that he never has to worry about his "company" going out of business because he works for the Federal Government. Further he emphasized his "company" (The Federal Government) owns the printing presses that print money, so they will never run out of money.
Those who work in public service have insulated themselves from many of the unpleasant aspects of the harsh realities faced by those employed in the non-government marketplace. BUT it is the non- government marketplace that generates economic activity creating wealth that produces the income that is taxed.
And there is the tension, one side generates the wealth, the other side taxes it away. How much jet fuel has the revenue department brought to market to power British enterprise, innovation and ingenuity around the globe last year? Allow me to guess; not a single drop, zero. BP, the men & women at BA and many others made that happen with little if any help from the regulators or the tax-man/woman.
That returns us to the original post. BALPA is pointing out that UK tax policy places them and the UK aviation industry at a competitive disadvantage and BALPA seeks relief. Somebody has to create wealth through industry, innovation and effort. We all simply cannot be ministers and governmental department heads on generous salaries, benefits and retirement schemes or be recipients of public assistance. SOMEBODY has to work!
I have always respected and enjoyed reading your valuable contributions here on PPRuNe, please do not interpret anything I have written as a personal attack on you or anybody employed in public service. For society to function well government must play a significant role. But government's constantly increasing demands on our wages is not supportable indefinitely. It seems BALPA has reached that point now and is seeking to change the status quo.
(1) The company purchased high end quality designer clothing from France and leather goods from Italy and Spain that were in demand but not available in the United States. This activity supported industries and thereby jobs on both sides of the Atlantic, a classic win-win for all parties involved (The original owners of the leather used would disagree).
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cldrvr - if you read the post, we (which included two experienced 25 year plus in the job, corporate drivers) were commenting on the fall in traffic compared to previous years.
Without Googling all the UK airport figures since what I would regard as the busy/peak times about 6 years ago I can't dispute your figures in the short term but going on what the handling agents told us, they most definitely do not have any growth in movements.Far from it. Sit looking at the runway at STN for example for 6 hours whilst you're waiting for the pax and you'll see the difference.
Off duty now so yes I have had a drink and a fine Scotch it was too!
We all work in aviation do we not? Increases in APD are bad for our business whatever your current job is. We should stick together in opposing it.
Without Googling all the UK airport figures since what I would regard as the busy/peak times about 6 years ago I can't dispute your figures in the short term but going on what the handling agents told us, they most definitely do not have any growth in movements.Far from it. Sit looking at the runway at STN for example for 6 hours whilst you're waiting for the pax and you'll see the difference.
Off duty now so yes I have had a drink and a fine Scotch it was too!
We all work in aviation do we not? Increases in APD are bad for our business whatever your current job is. We should stick together in opposing it.
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It's a nice easy tax, airlines have to pay it.
I don't see it resting at this level for long, inflation and the term "Green" will come into play.
APD and Stamp Duty are just low hanging fruit tax that drop into uk.Gov buckets, the buckets have so many holes, they will never ever be full enough to allow the fruit to remain on the tree....
Good Luck, but I think it's fruitless !!!!
I don't see it resting at this level for long, inflation and the term "Green" will come into play.
APD and Stamp Duty are just low hanging fruit tax that drop into uk.Gov buckets, the buckets have so many holes, they will never ever be full enough to allow the fruit to remain on the tree....
Good Luck, but I think it's fruitless !!!!
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"government's constantly increasing demands on our wages"
WRONG!!!
UK Income tax Wikipedia
the highest rate of income tax peaked in the Second World War at 99.25%. It was slightly reduced after the war and was around 90% through the 1950s and 60s.
Tax revenues as a percentage of GDP for the U.K. in comparison to the OECD and the EU 15.
In 1971 the top-rate of income tax on earned income was cut to 75%. A surcharge of 15% on investment income kept the top rate on that income at 90%.
In 1974 this cut was partly reversed, and the top rate on earned income raised to 83%.
With the investment income surcharge this raised the top rate on investment income to 98%, the highest permanent rate since the war. This applied to incomes over £20,000 (£155,247 as of 2012). In 1974, as many as 750,000 people were liable to pay the top-rate of income tax.
Margaret Thatcher, who favoured indirect taxation, reduced personal income tax rates during the 1980s. In the first budget after her election victory in 1979, the top rate was reduced from 83% to 60% and the basic rate from 33% to 30%.
The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets - to 29% in the 1986 budget, 27% in 1987 and to 25% in 1988. The top rate of income tax was cut to 40% in the 1988 budget.The investment income surcharge was abolished in 1985.
Subsequent governments reduced the basic rate further, down to its present level of 20% in 2007. Since 1976 (when it stood at 35%) the basic rate has been reduced by 15%.
In 2010 a new top rate of 50% was introduced on income over £150,000. In the 2012 budget this rate was cut to 45%.
WRONG!!!
UK Income tax Wikipedia
the highest rate of income tax peaked in the Second World War at 99.25%. It was slightly reduced after the war and was around 90% through the 1950s and 60s.
Tax revenues as a percentage of GDP for the U.K. in comparison to the OECD and the EU 15.
In 1971 the top-rate of income tax on earned income was cut to 75%. A surcharge of 15% on investment income kept the top rate on that income at 90%.
In 1974 this cut was partly reversed, and the top rate on earned income raised to 83%.
With the investment income surcharge this raised the top rate on investment income to 98%, the highest permanent rate since the war. This applied to incomes over £20,000 (£155,247 as of 2012). In 1974, as many as 750,000 people were liable to pay the top-rate of income tax.
Margaret Thatcher, who favoured indirect taxation, reduced personal income tax rates during the 1980s. In the first budget after her election victory in 1979, the top rate was reduced from 83% to 60% and the basic rate from 33% to 30%.
The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets - to 29% in the 1986 budget, 27% in 1987 and to 25% in 1988. The top rate of income tax was cut to 40% in the 1988 budget.The investment income surcharge was abolished in 1985.
Subsequent governments reduced the basic rate further, down to its present level of 20% in 2007. Since 1976 (when it stood at 35%) the basic rate has been reduced by 15%.
In 2010 a new top rate of 50% was introduced on income over £150,000. In the 2012 budget this rate was cut to 45%.
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WRONG? WRONG?
Heathrow Harry,
You are very selective in your choice of supporting "facts".
Never having earned enough money to pay the top rate of tax, any reduction in the top rate is irrelevant to me.
As I am retired and on a fixed income the Government is indeed making increasing demands on my income.
How much was ADP in the periods which you quote?
How much was fuel duty in those periods?
How much was VAT?
How much was National Insurance?
Rail fares are increasing at twice the inflation rate (with Government approval)
etc.etc.
You have conveniently supported your arguement with figures of direct taxation and omitted the more surreptitious methods of fleecing the population.
As you don't seem to have a problem with taxation, perhaps you could pay mine?
I am reminded of those who think that this Government should continue to provide aid to the "independent " countries in the developing world. This aid coming from our coffers when "the Govt have to find enough money to run the country".(your words)
So, I'm afraid that it is you who is WRONG.
You are very selective in your choice of supporting "facts".
Never having earned enough money to pay the top rate of tax, any reduction in the top rate is irrelevant to me.
As I am retired and on a fixed income the Government is indeed making increasing demands on my income.
How much was ADP in the periods which you quote?
How much was fuel duty in those periods?
How much was VAT?
How much was National Insurance?
Rail fares are increasing at twice the inflation rate (with Government approval)
etc.etc.
You have conveniently supported your arguement with figures of direct taxation and omitted the more surreptitious methods of fleecing the population.
As you don't seem to have a problem with taxation, perhaps you could pay mine?
I am reminded of those who think that this Government should continue to provide aid to the "independent " countries in the developing world. This aid coming from our coffers when "the Govt have to find enough money to run the country".(your words)
So, I'm afraid that it is you who is WRONG.
A more encouraging email from my (Conservative) MP. It seems there are some who are prepared to at least consider the matter rather than toe the party line.
Thank you for your email.
I very much agree with you about this and I am indeed one of the sponsors of this Early Day Motion which I hope reassures you of my views on this issue.
I will also pass on your views to the Minister.
If you ever feel that I can be of any help to you with anything at all please let me know.
Best wishes
Philip Davies MP
I very much agree with you about this and I am indeed one of the sponsors of this Early Day Motion which I hope reassures you of my views on this issue.
I will also pass on your views to the Minister.
If you ever feel that I can be of any help to you with anything at all please let me know.
Best wishes
Philip Davies MP
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BBC - Have Your Say: How can travel by train be improved?
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By increasing APD the UK will be balancing cost between UK Train and UK Air charges, it's just a way of keeping ahead of other countries !!!
And a previous poster mentioned Jet Fuel Tax, this will be a nice tool to get even more cash.
Two things in life are certain, been said for a long time, no change anytime soon I think.
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By increasing APD the UK will be balancing cost between UK Train and UK Air charges, it's just a way of keeping ahead of other countries !!!
And a previous poster mentioned Jet Fuel Tax, this will be a nice tool to get even more cash.
Two things in life are certain, been said for a long time, no change anytime soon I think.
By increasing APD the UK will be balancing cost between UK Train and UK Air charges, it's just a way of keeping ahead of other countries !!!
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Are there any trains running between London and New York then?
Not that I know.
But trains do travel between the UK and Europe.
Looking at UK train travel costs, it can not be a surprise that UK air travel gets extra charges !!!
It's only Tax !!!!
Not that I know.
But trains do travel between the UK and Europe.
Looking at UK train travel costs, it can not be a surprise that UK air travel gets extra charges !!!
It's only Tax !!!!
I'm told that quite a few people travelling to long-haul destinations from the UK are choosing to take the train to Paris/Amsterdam, have a good time in town, stay in a nice hotel, take a flight to their destination the next day and save money overall.
How can UK airlines compete with that? (Unless they start doing it themselves...)
How can UK airlines compete with that? (Unless they start doing it themselves...)
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FullWings is hearing correct.
Some travellers/visitors to Europe from distant places (capital city !!!) are indeed making travel plans to avoid the very high UK APD, lets say they visit the UK first, then mainland Europe and depart home from there, if they research UK train costs, maybe some will skip the UK.
My previous point about Trains and Planes and costings, the UK has expensive trains, getting more and more so, if the UK public can pay for the expensive trains, they will pay more for air travel, simples ???
I think some Euro countries held air travel tax and even suspended it, poss Holland.
The sooner all Euro APD charges are collected by BRU and handed out as they (BRU) see fit the better it will be !!!
Some travellers/visitors to Europe from distant places (capital city !!!) are indeed making travel plans to avoid the very high UK APD, lets say they visit the UK first, then mainland Europe and depart home from there, if they research UK train costs, maybe some will skip the UK.
My previous point about Trains and Planes and costings, the UK has expensive trains, getting more and more so, if the UK public can pay for the expensive trains, they will pay more for air travel, simples ???
I think some Euro countries held air travel tax and even suspended it, poss Holland.
The sooner all Euro APD charges are collected by BRU and handed out as they (BRU) see fit the better it will be !!!
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I signed the petition and today received a generic reply in return from my MP, Mr j Arbuthnot.
His argument was simply, 'the country/government needs the money.' He indicated that a favour had been done us in delaying the next rise.
Well though out? cogent? no.
A fob off? yes.
As he complained about automated petitions I have emailed him back personaly to reinforce my views on the damage being done. I would reccommend any one else receiving his email to do the same.
His argument was simply, 'the country/government needs the money.' He indicated that a favour had been done us in delaying the next rise.
Well though out? cogent? no.
A fob off? yes.
As he complained about automated petitions I have emailed him back personaly to reinforce my views on the damage being done. I would reccommend any one else receiving his email to do the same.
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GWH
Your MP is just being honest.
Gov.com's tend to collect Tax, this is just a nice easy one that gets poured into the Tax Bucket with little effort apart from just playing with the rate.
The rate is a bit of a joke, but if it were to be changed from cap city to a suitable formula, the overall rate/income/tax would tend to increase to pay for any changes and time spent on keeping people happy.
Lets just be happy it's so low at the moment, it's only going one way in the future !!!
GREEN ??????????
Your MP is just being honest.
Gov.com's tend to collect Tax, this is just a nice easy one that gets poured into the Tax Bucket with little effort apart from just playing with the rate.
The rate is a bit of a joke, but if it were to be changed from cap city to a suitable formula, the overall rate/income/tax would tend to increase to pay for any changes and time spent on keeping people happy.
Lets just be happy it's so low at the moment, it's only going one way in the future !!!
GREEN ??????????
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FERetd
Total tax take is shown below - clearly we are nowhere near the highest take which was, interestingly, under the Tories in the early 80's
obviously if you cut income tax then the tax has to be raised somewhere else
unless we REALLY cut deep - say defence, the NHS, University education (only 5% of the UK went to uni when I graduated ), social security....... but how you'd get elected on such a platform is beyond me
Financial year - Net taxes and NI £bn - % GDP
1964-65 12.3 36.2.
1965-66 11.4 31.2.
1966-67 12.3 31.8.
1967-68 13.8 33.6.
1968-69 15.6 35.
1969-70 17.7 37.
1970-71 19.3 36.3.
1971-72 20.8 35.
1972-73 22 32.6.
1973-74 24 31.9.
1974-75 31.1 34.5.
1975-76 39.5 35.3.
1976-77 46 35.1.
1977-78 52 34.1.
1978-79 57.8 33.1.
1979-80 70.3 33.5.
1980-81 84.9 35.5.
1981-82 100 38.
1982-83 109.7 38.2.
1983-84 117.9 37.7.
1984-85 128.6 38.2.
1985-86 138.2 37.4.
1986-87 146.8 37.
1987-88 162.1 36.8.
1988-89 176.8 36.1.
1989-90 189.8 35.4.
1990-91 201.2 34.9.
1991-92 205.3 33.8.
1992-93 205.4 32.7.
1993-94 211.8 31.8.
1994-95 232.2 33.
1995-96 250 33.6.
1996-97 269.4 34.
1997-98 296 35.1.
1998-99 316.5 35.5.
1999-00 335.3 35.5.
2000-01 359.3 36.3.
2001-02 369.1 35.8.
2002-03 375 34.3.
2003-04 397 34.3.
2004-05 427.1 35.2.
2005-06 456.8 35.9.
2006-07 486 36.1.
2007-08 516 36.2.
2008-09 508 35.5.
2009-10 477.8 34.
2010-11 528.9 35.9.
2011-12 550.6 35.7.
2012-13 569 35.5.
2013-14 599 35.7.
2014-15 633 35.9.
2015-16 664 35.6.
2016-17 704 35.7
Total tax take is shown below - clearly we are nowhere near the highest take which was, interestingly, under the Tories in the early 80's
obviously if you cut income tax then the tax has to be raised somewhere else
unless we REALLY cut deep - say defence, the NHS, University education (only 5% of the UK went to uni when I graduated ), social security....... but how you'd get elected on such a platform is beyond me
Financial year - Net taxes and NI £bn - % GDP
1964-65 12.3 36.2.
1965-66 11.4 31.2.
1966-67 12.3 31.8.
1967-68 13.8 33.6.
1968-69 15.6 35.
1969-70 17.7 37.
1970-71 19.3 36.3.
1971-72 20.8 35.
1972-73 22 32.6.
1973-74 24 31.9.
1974-75 31.1 34.5.
1975-76 39.5 35.3.
1976-77 46 35.1.
1977-78 52 34.1.
1978-79 57.8 33.1.
1979-80 70.3 33.5.
1980-81 84.9 35.5.
1981-82 100 38.
1982-83 109.7 38.2.
1983-84 117.9 37.7.
1984-85 128.6 38.2.
1985-86 138.2 37.4.
1986-87 146.8 37.
1987-88 162.1 36.8.
1988-89 176.8 36.1.
1989-90 189.8 35.4.
1990-91 201.2 34.9.
1991-92 205.3 33.8.
1992-93 205.4 32.7.
1993-94 211.8 31.8.
1994-95 232.2 33.
1995-96 250 33.6.
1996-97 269.4 34.
1997-98 296 35.1.
1998-99 316.5 35.5.
1999-00 335.3 35.5.
2000-01 359.3 36.3.
2001-02 369.1 35.8.
2002-03 375 34.3.
2003-04 397 34.3.
2004-05 427.1 35.2.
2005-06 456.8 35.9.
2006-07 486 36.1.
2007-08 516 36.2.
2008-09 508 35.5.
2009-10 477.8 34.
2010-11 528.9 35.9.
2011-12 550.6 35.7.
2012-13 569 35.5.
2013-14 599 35.7.
2014-15 633 35.9.
2015-16 664 35.6.
2016-17 704 35.7
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 21st Aug 2012 at 11:38.
The issue is whether aviation is being unfairly targeted - personally I think it is - I couldn't give a damn what % of GDP our taxes are set at - all I object to is having to pay these increased taxes when I want to see my relatives in Australia.
Also our politicians are lying (how unusual?) when they tell us this is a "green" tax when none of it is being set aside for "green" purposes (whatever they are).
At a time when the UK airlines are having enough difficulty making profits, HMG decides to increase taxation on air travel.
When the next election comes round and I get canvassed on the doorstep by the prospective parliamentary candidates I will be asking them what their views are and which way they voted - if they indicate their lack of support for changing this penal level of taxation on aviation I will be making it blatantly clear to them that they will not be attracting my vote and I will be educating others to do likewise.
Also our politicians are lying (how unusual?) when they tell us this is a "green" tax when none of it is being set aside for "green" purposes (whatever they are).
At a time when the UK airlines are having enough difficulty making profits, HMG decides to increase taxation on air travel.
When the next election comes round and I get canvassed on the doorstep by the prospective parliamentary candidates I will be asking them what their views are and which way they voted - if they indicate their lack of support for changing this penal level of taxation on aviation I will be making it blatantly clear to them that they will not be attracting my vote and I will be educating others to do likewise.
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Selective again
Oh Heathrow Harry, once again you are selecting statistics to suit your arguement. The % GDP is irrelevant and your own figures show an increase in actual Tax revenue and NI every year since 1964. That is the reality and we (well, most of us) know where it is coming from - our pockets.
APD, the thrust of this thread, is just another cash grab and fireflybob has made some very valid points on the matter.
Like others I, too, signed the petition and received only a generic response from my MP.
I do not agree with the cutbacks to defence (almost to the point of defenceless) or to the NHS, but do agree with your remarks on University education and social security - could include foreign aid as well.
You ask how one would get elected on the manifesto that you have described and the answer is, of course, you won't. You merely publish a more acceptable manifest and then do what you afterwards (again, see fireflybob's post).
You will remember "How to tell if a politician is lying....?"
APD, the thrust of this thread, is just another cash grab and fireflybob has made some very valid points on the matter.
Like others I, too, signed the petition and received only a generic response from my MP.
I do not agree with the cutbacks to defence (almost to the point of defenceless) or to the NHS, but do agree with your remarks on University education and social security - could include foreign aid as well.
You ask how one would get elected on the manifesto that you have described and the answer is, of course, you won't. You merely publish a more acceptable manifest and then do what you afterwards (again, see fireflybob's post).
You will remember "How to tell if a politician is lying....?"
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Wait, so this tax doesn't even go directly towards improvements in ATC, runways, or security? Disgusting.
Darling admits APD will help pay for banking crisis - www.travelweekly.co.uk
That's Nov 2009..
Darling admits APD will help pay for banking crisis
Nov 02, 2009 11:00AM GMT
Chancellor Alistair Darling has admitted that Air Passenger Duty (APD) is a tax to help fight the banking crisis, according to reports.
Speaking in London last month, Darling told The Journal: "I am quite blunt about it, we need to raise money to pay for some things we have done.
"If unemployment goes up there is a cost obviously to the family, there is cost in increased benefits, Northern Rock has cost a lot of money."
A Treasury spokesman confirmed to Travel Weekly APD has always been a "revenue raising instrument".
Nov 02, 2009 11:00AM GMT
Chancellor Alistair Darling has admitted that Air Passenger Duty (APD) is a tax to help fight the banking crisis, according to reports.
Speaking in London last month, Darling told The Journal: "I am quite blunt about it, we need to raise money to pay for some things we have done.
"If unemployment goes up there is a cost obviously to the family, there is cost in increased benefits, Northern Rock has cost a lot of money."
A Treasury spokesman confirmed to Travel Weekly APD has always been a "revenue raising instrument".
