4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
dhorgan - semantically speaking I agree with you but crews are also required to conform to the provisions of their operations manual.
With respect to remaining fuel endurance, if on a particular occasion a Captain decides to declare Mayday before reaching minimums specified in the Operations Manual then that is his/her call but Operators are required to define criteria for such action within their Operations Manual.
With respect to remaining fuel endurance, if on a particular occasion a Captain decides to declare Mayday before reaching minimums specified in the Operations Manual then that is his/her call but Operators are required to define criteria for such action within their Operations Manual.
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To all the people saying that minimum fuel is always safe because the regulations says so, what if every plane flying to Madrid on this day had only fuelled minimum legal required fuel, would the situation still be safe???
dhorgan is absolutely correct. A mayday call is a distress call, nothing more, nothing less.
dhorgan is absolutely correct. A mayday call is a distress call, nothing more, nothing less.
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Well until we have hard facts (which we won't), any discussion on Ryanair or the incident will go round around until the mods flush it down the toilet where it belongs.
People taking PLOG fuel to Madrid are asking for trouble on a CAVOK day, let alone if there is TSRA in the forecast. As I said before and as fireflybob alludes, people just need to have more confidence in their fuel decisions. If there is delays or WX expected, don't just take an extra few hundred kgs, take at least half an hour!
People taking PLOG fuel to Madrid are asking for trouble on a CAVOK day, let alone if there is TSRA in the forecast. As I said before and as fireflybob alludes, people just need to have more confidence in their fuel decisions. If there is delays or WX expected, don't just take an extra few hundred kgs, take at least half an hour!
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Tienetti - as I said in #163 and MrH in #209, the chances of getting the truth here are slim. However, I do not have the time, but if you have it would be useful to list the callsigns involved (from FR24), when they entered the hold at MAD, when they departed for VLC and how long they held at VLC - any chance?
Assuming all 4 aircraft left the hold with a predicted fuel state of CMR at DA following an approach (they would surely not have 'committed' to MAD?) they should have been nowhere near a MAYDAY from what you describe ie "no aircraft has been kept over VLC more than 4 minutes" so it is apparent there is more to 'discover'.
Assuming all 4 aircraft left the hold with a predicted fuel state of CMR at DA following an approach (they would surely not have 'committed' to MAD?) they should have been nowhere near a MAYDAY from what you describe ie "no aircraft has been kept over VLC more than 4 minutes" so it is apparent there is more to 'discover'.
Last edited by BOAC; 17th Aug 2012 at 07:24.
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If as claimed by Ryanair they had plus 30 mins fuel / 300 miles then it shouldn't have been a Mayday call.
The likelihood of a quadruple event such as what is reported is much much lower than the likelihood of one event occurring. What happened doesn't seem logical and based on this I'd say the Mayday call seems to have been prearranged between the four of them.
The likelihood of a quadruple event such as what is reported is much much lower than the likelihood of one event occurring. What happened doesn't seem logical and based on this I'd say the Mayday call seems to have been prearranged between the four of them.
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I find this really pathetic to say that it's absolutely right to take minimum fuel and then go in the same post with "spanish ATC is rubbish etc"...what does it say about the ability to anticipate. If you show up with the same fuel in STN and MAD....what does it really say about your "situational awareness".
Once again, the question is more what you manage to do with your fuel and anybody can blame ATC...but everybody who flies in Europe with such an extensive spanish network knows it as well and has to take this into account. It's no big news. Spanish ATC has probably been consistent with their usual performance, nothing unusual. Yes spanish ATC doesn't give any direct but I find this as pathetic to pretend to foresee ATC with 3 plots on TCAS...
I still find strange that it's a "non-event" to declare Mayday. A mayday clearly means "I was not able to foresee what's coming, I need help and can't deal with the normal procedures and course of actions with the fuel I've left".So to say, I've not been able to either uplift the amount of fuel I needed or to take the appropriate decisions relevant to the amount of fuel I uplifted. How come the FR crew were in a more difficult situation than anybody else that night?
If Mr McNamara says something then it's absolutely right. Being a PR person in an airline just shows how much you don't know regulations and reality of the job...not even taking into account that it might not even be close to reality. You divert and you burn 69 minutes in the hold to end up in a mayday situation. Is it being stupid or what? There is Reus, Alicante and BCN just minutes around...WTF. You divert, you would go stack for 69 minutes to mayday when there are loads, loads of good opportunities available. If this is true then it's time to raise other questions.
Anyway, despite blaming spanish ATC, regulators or captains themselves...FR will still have to explain how they don't manage to anticipate all this as much as the other airlines did if it's all the same.
I'm still amazed that people can find normal to use a mayday...
Found on an internet WX website...
TAF LEMD 261700Z 2618/2724 16012KT 9999 FEW050
TX34/2618Z TN19/2705Z
BECMG 2619/2621 VRB05KT
TEMPO 2618/2624 SHRA SCT040TCU
PROB40 TEMPO 2618/2623 VRB15G25KT TSRA SCT040CB
BECMG 2709/2711 24010KT
PROB40 TEMPO 2710/2718 SHRA FEW040TCU=
Once again, the question is more what you manage to do with your fuel and anybody can blame ATC...but everybody who flies in Europe with such an extensive spanish network knows it as well and has to take this into account. It's no big news. Spanish ATC has probably been consistent with their usual performance, nothing unusual. Yes spanish ATC doesn't give any direct but I find this as pathetic to pretend to foresee ATC with 3 plots on TCAS...
I still find strange that it's a "non-event" to declare Mayday. A mayday clearly means "I was not able to foresee what's coming, I need help and can't deal with the normal procedures and course of actions with the fuel I've left".So to say, I've not been able to either uplift the amount of fuel I needed or to take the appropriate decisions relevant to the amount of fuel I uplifted. How come the FR crew were in a more difficult situation than anybody else that night?
If Mr McNamara says something then it's absolutely right. Being a PR person in an airline just shows how much you don't know regulations and reality of the job...not even taking into account that it might not even be close to reality. You divert and you burn 69 minutes in the hold to end up in a mayday situation. Is it being stupid or what? There is Reus, Alicante and BCN just minutes around...WTF. You divert, you would go stack for 69 minutes to mayday when there are loads, loads of good opportunities available. If this is true then it's time to raise other questions.
Anyway, despite blaming spanish ATC, regulators or captains themselves...FR will still have to explain how they don't manage to anticipate all this as much as the other airlines did if it's all the same.
I'm still amazed that people can find normal to use a mayday...
Found on an internet WX website...
TAF LEMD 261700Z 2618/2724 16012KT 9999 FEW050
TX34/2618Z TN19/2705Z
BECMG 2619/2621 VRB05KT
TEMPO 2618/2624 SHRA SCT040TCU
PROB40 TEMPO 2618/2623 VRB15G25KT TSRA SCT040CB
BECMG 2709/2711 24010KT
PROB40 TEMPO 2710/2718 SHRA FEW040TCU=
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Originally Posted by BOAC
Tienetti - as I said in #163 and MrH in #209, the chances of getting the truth here are slim. However, I do not have the time, but if you have it would be useful to list the callsigns involved (from FR24), when they entered the hold at MAD, when they departed for VLC and how long they held at VLC - any chance?
Assuming all 4 aircraft left the hold with a predicted fuel state of CMR at DA following an approach (they would surely not have 'committed' to MAD?) they should have been nowhere near a MAYDAY from what you describe ie "no aircraft has been kept over VLC more than 4 minutes" so it is apparent there is more to 'discover'.
Assuming all 4 aircraft left the hold with a predicted fuel state of CMR at DA following an approach (they would surely not have 'committed' to MAD?) they should have been nowhere near a MAYDAY from what you describe ie "no aircraft has been kept over VLC more than 4 minutes" so it is apparent there is more to 'discover'.
http://www.intereconomia.com/flv-video?embed=817649
And this https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9zwsmnsc0...maydayryr3.wav
If you follow the tracks, you will se that none of this 2 traffic has been holding in MAD (only some vectors, let's say 10 minutes MAYBE,probably less)
RYR9VR has done 1 orbit in VLC to let the LAN land before them, while RYR5389 ALREADY declared emergency when still descending to FL130 inbound MILOS (still pretty far from VLC)
I am not sure about the others
I can see only another RYR (2054 from PMI) that diverted to VLC and another went to ALC
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Thanks Tienetti - still shrouded in Irish mystery, though. IF they left for VLC after no more than 10 minutes they would have CMR plus about 700kg at a guess. Once round at VLC then does not put them near Final Reserve.
It is understood that if you are being 'messed around' and LOOK as if you are going to be below FR, then a PAN call is required, and in Spain it is sensible to make that a MAYDAY to guarantee the correct resonse. There has, I feel, to be more.
It is understood that if you are being 'messed around' and LOOK as if you are going to be below FR, then a PAN call is required, and in Spain it is sensible to make that a MAYDAY to guarantee the correct resonse. There has, I feel, to be more.
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My local rag reports the Spanish ASA are to investigate why three Ryanair pilot called for mayday landings. Not four for some reason. They diverted from Madrid to Valencia and after stacking at Manises for 50, 68, and 69 minutes called Mayday. All three had normal minimum fuel left on landing.
The Spanish want to know why only the Ryanair planes called Mayday---none of the other circling planes did. They could face a fine of 4.5 million euros and a ban from landing in Spain for three years.
And don't forget the long running and bitter disputes Ryanair can get into with Spain over airbridges,fees etc etc. Bit of score settling??
Ps forgive if this gets mangled. I'm involved with a war with my PC at the moment.Forgive me if this has been covered.
The Spanish want to know why only the Ryanair planes called Mayday---none of the other circling planes did. They could face a fine of 4.5 million euros and a ban from landing in Spain for three years.
And don't forget the long running and bitter disputes Ryanair can get into with Spain over airbridges,fees etc etc. Bit of score settling??
Ps forgive if this gets mangled. I'm involved with a war with my PC at the moment.Forgive me if this has been covered.
Only SLF, so walk in where angels fear to tread. But superficially if four Ryanair pilots found themselves in a bad place and all four called Mayday in a heartbeat that is reassuring, not scary.
There are many reasons I choose not to fly with Ryanair - but safety is not one of them.
There are many reasons I choose not to fly with Ryanair - but safety is not one of them.
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Ryanair's standard report time for crews is 45 minutes before departure. Allowing for at least 5 minutes to log in to computer, read compulsory notices, print weather and flight plans etc, plus a 5 minute walk to the aircraft to be there at the latest, 20 mins before departure, in theory leaves 15 minutes flight planning time. For a four sector day that's less than 4 mins per sector !!!
Surely nothing to do with it ?........
PS
When reported, the IAA told me that there was no evidence / complaints from Ryanair pilots saying this wasn't long enough !
Surely nothing to do with it ?........
PS
When reported, the IAA told me that there was no evidence / complaints from Ryanair pilots saying this wasn't long enough !
Last edited by Aldente; 17th Aug 2012 at 21:37.
