4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
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Some responses ( the few ) in this thread from supposedly felow colleagues amuse me to no extent. You guys would be better off as airline management, bean counters and desk pilots.
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I have rung ops a few times when dest wx was ****, when I needed to know whether they would prefer me to divert on 'PLOG+ a bit' fuel or take mucho extra fuel to hold for 1 or 2 hours. It is, after all, a commercial decision, which I had neither the time nor knowledge to assess - not a command one. It can also affect a tanking decision since to use some of your return fuel and to have to uplift a few 100kg is just plain uneconomic. They normally got what they decided.
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I've been accused of being an "expensive pilot" picking up "bad habits" by my BC (although a bit tongue in cheek… but in every joke there is a bit of truth) for not choosing to cruise at FMC Max Alt but using nearest level below Opt Alt, using 2nd detent reverse instead of idle reverse when I thought the situation warranted it, and dropping the gear at 4,5 nm instead of 4 nm from the runway. The fuel fanatics are out there...
Last edited by 172_driver; 29th Jul 2012 at 19:04.
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BOAC
That would indeed be a scenario I would be grateful to be a part of, and learn from.
However, I doubt from your profile you would define 'PROB30 TEMPO 500 FG' with no destination additional hold and fuelled for furthest commercial alternate, always meeting CATI, on duration of 45-180 mins, when heading to and from a European airfield in a CATIIIb aircraft (or adjusted minimums for equipment or (Crew, not applicable in my employer Airline) downgrade)) as I get the 'more fuel' calls to Ops.
My point, is not many new Commanders, and please excuse me, have the command learning time to carryout 'Command' thinking, more have been conditioned to 'Company Thinking' at best.
However, I doubt from your profile you would define 'PROB30 TEMPO 500 FG' with no destination additional hold and fuelled for furthest commercial alternate, always meeting CATI, on duration of 45-180 mins, when heading to and from a European airfield in a CATIIIb aircraft (or adjusted minimums for equipment or (Crew, not applicable in my employer Airline) downgrade)) as I get the 'more fuel' calls to Ops.
My point, is not many new Commanders, and please excuse me, have the command learning time to carryout 'Command' thinking, more have been conditioned to 'Company Thinking' at best.
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172 driver,
I remember a very "public" overun , where the PIC (a Line Tng Capt to boot) used F30/ Autobrake 2 & don't remember the amount of Reverse, when common sense dictated that a wet (known but not notified as a bit "slippery" when wet) tailwind landing might have warranted a bit more.
Too many Commanders unable/unwilling to use their own judgement.
I remember a very "public" overun , where the PIC (a Line Tng Capt to boot) used F30/ Autobrake 2 & don't remember the amount of Reverse, when common sense dictated that a wet (known but not notified as a bit "slippery" when wet) tailwind landing might have warranted a bit more.
Too many Commanders unable/unwilling to use their own judgement.
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The next time I exhaust my options in bad weather, having held for 5 (or 55) minutes, and then have to mention that I don't have sightseeing fuel on board because everyone else had the same idea, I hope that I don't get 6 pages written about me.
It probably won't make it onto PPRUNE, though, because I don't work for RYR.
I'm not a RYR apologist, but nothing in this debate suggests dodgy fuel policy, or bad decisions. A few of the replies have made me wonder...
It probably won't make it onto PPRUNE, though, because I don't work for RYR.
I'm not a RYR apologist, but nothing in this debate suggests dodgy fuel policy, or bad decisions. A few of the replies have made me wonder...
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It does seem that these guys were indeed left holding a bit of a "slippery baby" due, at least in part, to the help rendered by certain ATC's they had to deal with, so (quite possibly?) no real blame deserved here in ending up with a Distress call.
If nothing else it has opened up a healthy debate on Commanders authority, and the (apparent) unwillingness of some individuals to demand/use it . . and not just in Ryanair.
If nothing else it has opened up a healthy debate on Commanders authority, and the (apparent) unwillingness of some individuals to demand/use it . . and not just in Ryanair.
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Captains having his fuel decisions questioned by Base captains:
It is well known that one of Ryanair’s most infamous base captains has been known to arrange his office days on days when the weather forecast looks less than ideal. He doesn’t like strong crosswinds much; same goes for snow or TSRA and all the other things in a pilot’s life, which might require that little bit extra of him.
The charming thing about said base captain: He will be the first and worst in criticizing a crew for taking extra fuel. (I am thinking the he has already long forgotten about that one evening he himself landed with LESS than final reserve fuel
)
But there are also base captains in Ryanair who respect their crew’s fuel decisions without question.
Incidentally an example of one of these base captains will have the home base TAF read PROB40 +TSRA 80% of all summer days…
So in conclusion there are different types of base captains in FR, some are better than others, a few outright gentlemen, and some outright arseholes, but most importantly some are better at withstanding the pressure from DUB, and therefore protect their crews better.
You as a pilot will have to play the cards you have been dealt, and take the fuel you need. But you can do all things right, all day, and still have to declare a fuel emergency… I wouldn’t like to point any fingers at these 4 crews just yet.
FR trivia:
If memory serves me correctly: The only mention of airmanship in FR’s ops manual is in the chapter on selection of autobrake and which rapid exit taxiway to use… go figure…
It is well known that one of Ryanair’s most infamous base captains has been known to arrange his office days on days when the weather forecast looks less than ideal. He doesn’t like strong crosswinds much; same goes for snow or TSRA and all the other things in a pilot’s life, which might require that little bit extra of him.
The charming thing about said base captain: He will be the first and worst in criticizing a crew for taking extra fuel. (I am thinking the he has already long forgotten about that one evening he himself landed with LESS than final reserve fuel
)But there are also base captains in Ryanair who respect their crew’s fuel decisions without question.
Incidentally an example of one of these base captains will have the home base TAF read PROB40 +TSRA 80% of all summer days…So in conclusion there are different types of base captains in FR, some are better than others, a few outright gentlemen, and some outright arseholes, but most importantly some are better at withstanding the pressure from DUB, and therefore protect their crews better.
You as a pilot will have to play the cards you have been dealt, and take the fuel you need. But you can do all things right, all day, and still have to declare a fuel emergency… I wouldn’t like to point any fingers at these 4 crews just yet.
FR trivia:
If memory serves me correctly: The only mention of airmanship in FR’s ops manual is in the chapter on selection of autobrake and which rapid exit taxiway to use… go figure…
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"My point, is not many new Commanders, and please excuse me, have the command learning time to carryout 'Command' thinking, more have been conditioned to 'Company Thinking' at best."
That´s the point, I wish we could have the 1.500hr minimum time to fly Commercial operations, too many 190hrs propeller guys up there playing adult games, and I know it because I have teached many of those guys, some of them don´t even passed the exams.
That´s the point, I wish we could have the 1.500hr minimum time to fly Commercial operations, too many 190hrs propeller guys up there playing adult games, and I know it because I have teached many of those guys, some of them don´t even passed the exams.
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May I ask a question?
On this side of the great pond, most pilots would declare "Minimum Fuel" which despite it's ominous sounding name, doesn't mean the airplane is about to fall out of the sky. It just means the aircraft cannot accept any undue delay, and is not treated as an emergency, because it's NOT!
I often wonder when I see topics like this, if this is what's happening?
On this side of the great pond, most pilots would declare "Minimum Fuel" which despite it's ominous sounding name, doesn't mean the airplane is about to fall out of the sky. It just means the aircraft cannot accept any undue delay, and is not treated as an emergency, because it's NOT!
I often wonder when I see topics like this, if this is what's happening?
Last edited by CDN_ATC; 30th Jul 2012 at 06:33.
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CDN - that is because the US is not in compliance with ICAO. This from a Eurocontrol document:
Fuel Reserves Approaching Minimum
’Fuel Emergency’ or ‘fuel priority’ are not recognised terms. Flight crews
short of fuel must declare a PAN or MAYDAY to be sure of being given the
appropriate priority.
Your training should have advised you that any such call outside the US and Canada will probably be met with
"Are you declaring an emergency" and if the answer is no, you will simply take your turn in the queue.
Fuel Reserves Approaching Minimum
’Fuel Emergency’ or ‘fuel priority’ are not recognised terms. Flight crews
short of fuel must declare a PAN or MAYDAY to be sure of being given the
appropriate priority.
Your training should have advised you that any such call outside the US and Canada will probably be met with
"Are you declaring an emergency" and if the answer is no, you will simply take your turn in the queue.
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No matter what it says,the questions not being in bashing FR constantly but having 3 or 4 aircraft with the same problem at the same time isn't it telling you something?
MAD is a big FR base but it's not either a crazy big company hub like you can find for IB,or LHR BA,CDG AF,FRA LH etc etc...it's quite a percentage having a serious problem that night in MAD. I wouldn't blame the guys themselves because if they were four of them that same time, if that's their decision making...then who's to blame?(4 doing the same mistake) These guys didn't appoint themselves as captains, the company promoted them. Based on which grounds? If the decision making is not good enough then why/how did the company promoted/assessed them?
-either they really need captains and with the conditions they offer, they might need to lower the standards to have enough LHS,in taking guys not able for it or not YET able for it
-or they promote guys who run the show without making waves (sometimes making waves like going against company decision,fuel,etc etc...is the safest and most efficient course of action), no feedback or reports on somebody doesn't make this person good and professional!
-or they put too much pressure/workload so that these guys lose clearsight and decision frame is gone
-or because young, easy-to-influence people start to believe what's constantly said by company in the media
ilots are lazy,working very few hours,not challenging job where everything is under control etc etc and that it can just be them ******* up to make it go wrong. When you get an upgrade in less than 3 years at 25yo, if you're a little bit luckier than the average in not having seen too much crap on the line as in life, you can fall in the trap of,we fly min fuel every day,nothing ever happened,I got promoted, that thing's not that hard to do!Not to me anyway!PROB30 TEMPO..."that's not gonna happen" "why?" "it never does"
I'm not a former Sabena but flown with a couple and I can't believe how much positive these guys,porperly trained from other times, other means, other policies, other beliefs can bring in. The experienced guys teach the youth where training tells you about SOPs,VNAV and paperwork...training is good but still basic and based on SOPs only assuming you will never be in a **** situation with them. Problem is life is life and you'll necessarily get in one and you never are taught on how to take you out of it. Technical and airmanship knowledge is kept to a minimum like everywhere except that with more cpt/ltc of 3 years/3000h, what do they teach you? FO learns slower,gets the upgrade at same point but with less knowledge, and will know even less as a cpt etc giving less to the FO etc etc...
MAD is a big FR base but it's not either a crazy big company hub like you can find for IB,or LHR BA,CDG AF,FRA LH etc etc...it's quite a percentage having a serious problem that night in MAD. I wouldn't blame the guys themselves because if they were four of them that same time, if that's their decision making...then who's to blame?(4 doing the same mistake) These guys didn't appoint themselves as captains, the company promoted them. Based on which grounds? If the decision making is not good enough then why/how did the company promoted/assessed them?
-either they really need captains and with the conditions they offer, they might need to lower the standards to have enough LHS,in taking guys not able for it or not YET able for it
-or they promote guys who run the show without making waves (sometimes making waves like going against company decision,fuel,etc etc...is the safest and most efficient course of action), no feedback or reports on somebody doesn't make this person good and professional!
-or they put too much pressure/workload so that these guys lose clearsight and decision frame is gone
-or because young, easy-to-influence people start to believe what's constantly said by company in the media
ilots are lazy,working very few hours,not challenging job where everything is under control etc etc and that it can just be them ******* up to make it go wrong. When you get an upgrade in less than 3 years at 25yo, if you're a little bit luckier than the average in not having seen too much crap on the line as in life, you can fall in the trap of,we fly min fuel every day,nothing ever happened,I got promoted, that thing's not that hard to do!Not to me anyway!PROB30 TEMPO..."that's not gonna happen" "why?" "it never does"I'm not a former Sabena but flown with a couple and I can't believe how much positive these guys,porperly trained from other times, other means, other policies, other beliefs can bring in. The experienced guys teach the youth where training tells you about SOPs,VNAV and paperwork...training is good but still basic and based on SOPs only assuming you will never be in a **** situation with them. Problem is life is life and you'll necessarily get in one and you never are taught on how to take you out of it. Technical and airmanship knowledge is kept to a minimum like everywhere except that with more cpt/ltc of 3 years/3000h, what do they teach you? FO learns slower,gets the upgrade at same point but with less knowledge, and will know even less as a cpt etc giving less to the FO etc etc...
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Separated by a common language: In the US, Minimum Fuel and Fuel Emergency are recognized terms.
"Minimum Fuel" = PAN PAN PAN
"Fuel Emergency"= MAYDAY
When flying outside the US pilots should be using the ICAO terminology, but the end result is the same.
"XXX is minimum fuel."
"Are you declaring an emergency?"
"Not at this time, but if I am still airborne in 10 minutes I will be."
"Minimum Fuel" = PAN PAN PAN
"Fuel Emergency"= MAYDAY
When flying outside the US pilots should be using the ICAO terminology, but the end result is the same.
"XXX is minimum fuel."
"Are you declaring an emergency?"
"Not at this time, but if I am still airborne in 10 minutes I will be."
Last edited by BobnSpike; 30th Jul 2012 at 11:00.
Admiral346:
I have tried to send you (and BOAC) a PM about fuel league tables.
I have been unsuccessful (with you - not BOAC).
"Admiral346 has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore, you may not send your message to him/her".
I wonder which one it is? We shall probably never know.
I have tried to send you (and BOAC) a PM about fuel league tables.
I have been unsuccessful (with you - not BOAC).
"Admiral346 has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore, you may not send your message to him/her".
I wonder which one it is? We shall probably never know.
Last edited by JW411; 30th Jul 2012 at 19:13.
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Post #70, not 100% proof, but sounds fairly authentic.
It has been posted that they were NOT alone in declaring emergencies, I have no reason to doubt that.
Not mentioned in the Link on post 70 . . I wonder why
It has been posted that they were NOT alone in declaring emergencies, I have no reason to doubt that.
Not mentioned in the Link on post 70 . . I wonder why
Last edited by captplaystation; 30th Jul 2012 at 19:36.
Last edited by LYKA; 31st Jul 2012 at 16:33.
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it scares the sh*t out of me,
Commercial pressure with the advent of airlines, railways, hospitals and educational institutions being run like cut throat businesses safety and professional propriety are shoved right to the bottom of priorities inspite of all the public protestations to the contrary.
The travelling public and mercantile capitalism are the culprit. Think about it. Think hard!
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reading some of the horror stories on PPRuNe seem to suggest there are as many "type" of pilots as there are as many "type" of drivers on public roads and it scares the sh*t out of me,
Yours is, of course, a question that could be asked of every profession on earth...radiologist, NASCAR driver, lawyer, kindergarten teacher, rocket scientist, plumber, newspaper reporter, neurosrugeon...in fact airframers supposedly engineer aircraft to be safely handled not just by the ace of the base but by the mid-level ordinary pilot and even to safely react to the ministrations of the guy who chose flying over plumbing because he thought it would pay better.