DeltaConnection carriers file a petition for one list
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: at the edge of the alps
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The only way to get away with whipsawing would be to do ALL of a company's (or holding company's) flying on ONE seniority list.
If the majors had not "discarded" turboprop flying as "below them" when it started, there would be no need for scope protection today.
It is not gospel that an RJ captain MUST earn more than a 747 copilot. There is a european airline that has "regional" captains and "longhaul" copilots at (about) the same pay rate, so it's a matter of choice if you prefer long sectors as SIC or short ones as PIC.
The difficult thing is how to change from the present system to a One-List system. Pilots who have flown for the subsidiary for a long time might find it hard to accept that they'll join the tail end of the major's seniority list, while major's pilots find it unacceptable to have anyone jump ahead of them. On the long run even the former should leave regional pilots better off than never merging lists.
If the lists are merged by date, will be able to bid for all positions, so better paid regional PIC positions (if existing) would be open to mainline copilots. If the lists are just joined back to front regional pilots would obviously have to keep their positions (or at least pay).
The mainline's ability to hire more experienced pilots from the military or somewhere else rather than having to take pilots from the subsidiary should not be a factor. Seniority, after all, is designed to give the jobs to the people already with the company, provided they have the required level of experience. Better than required experience isn't really an issue. If we want to protect the airline's right to hire the "best man for the job" rather than "the most senior man able to to the job" we'd have to abolish seniority.
As I don't know of any reliable way to measure if one pilot is better than the other, we should stick to seniority, even if it stings sometimes.....
Writing from a European Regional where this might be an issue in the future.
BTW, keep the Railway Labor Act and the NMB.
If the majors had not "discarded" turboprop flying as "below them" when it started, there would be no need for scope protection today.
It is not gospel that an RJ captain MUST earn more than a 747 copilot. There is a european airline that has "regional" captains and "longhaul" copilots at (about) the same pay rate, so it's a matter of choice if you prefer long sectors as SIC or short ones as PIC.
The difficult thing is how to change from the present system to a One-List system. Pilots who have flown for the subsidiary for a long time might find it hard to accept that they'll join the tail end of the major's seniority list, while major's pilots find it unacceptable to have anyone jump ahead of them. On the long run even the former should leave regional pilots better off than never merging lists.
If the lists are merged by date, will be able to bid for all positions, so better paid regional PIC positions (if existing) would be open to mainline copilots. If the lists are just joined back to front regional pilots would obviously have to keep their positions (or at least pay).
The mainline's ability to hire more experienced pilots from the military or somewhere else rather than having to take pilots from the subsidiary should not be a factor. Seniority, after all, is designed to give the jobs to the people already with the company, provided they have the required level of experience. Better than required experience isn't really an issue. If we want to protect the airline's right to hire the "best man for the job" rather than "the most senior man able to to the job" we'd have to abolish seniority.
As I don't know of any reliable way to measure if one pilot is better than the other, we should stick to seniority, even if it stings sometimes.....
Writing from a European Regional where this might be an issue in the future.
BTW, keep the Railway Labor Act and the NMB.
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good to see a few people out there remember our "friend" hank duffy....and all the people he sold his line of crap to....just don't forget his successor, b. babbit who suddenly overnight became a delta captain...lots of delta pilots are scabs, they just crossed the eastern picket line in their own uniforms and airplanes...
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Very interesting.
If you guy's ever get to the point of merging those lists, you get to the problem of how. At KLM and fully owned daughter KLM Cityhopper this has been done. They picked a date, say today, everybody already working at Cityhopper gets half seniority at KLM (to be used after 8 years) and all new hires will get full seniority on the new list. With a sliding scale for those working less that 4 at Cityhopper. So the guy that has been with KLM for say 2 years now has a lot of Cityhopper pilots in front of him on the list. He is not a happy camper. It won't influence his short term bidding but down the line it might take him years longer to make big-jet-captain, and associated pay. So what do you think happened ? The senior Cityhopper guy's started a lawsuit saying they deserve full seniority as well (date of hire), and that the junior Cityhopper guy's got a better deal and that is discrimination. Go figure. Case is not settled yet. If this tread is still alive I'll let ya know.
(P.S. I'm not personally effected).
If you guy's ever get to the point of merging those lists, you get to the problem of how. At KLM and fully owned daughter KLM Cityhopper this has been done. They picked a date, say today, everybody already working at Cityhopper gets half seniority at KLM (to be used after 8 years) and all new hires will get full seniority on the new list. With a sliding scale for those working less that 4 at Cityhopper. So the guy that has been with KLM for say 2 years now has a lot of Cityhopper pilots in front of him on the list. He is not a happy camper. It won't influence his short term bidding but down the line it might take him years longer to make big-jet-captain, and associated pay. So what do you think happened ? The senior Cityhopper guy's started a lawsuit saying they deserve full seniority as well (date of hire), and that the junior Cityhopper guy's got a better deal and that is discrimination. Go figure. Case is not settled yet. If this tread is still alive I'll let ya know.
(P.S. I'm not personally effected).
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Recently, there was an ASA-type on the jump seat. There was polite discussion on the topic. Then a statement was made that he didn't like. We said (just to see his reaction) that many of the senior Delta F/O's may want to hop into the left seat of the RJ, thereby displacing some ASA/Comair Capt's down to the Brasilia, and the Brasilia Capt's down to the RJ F/O, etc. His response? "You can't do that!" Boy, he was beet-red with anger. Apparently it's only a good deal if it works their way. Funny thing, though. Before the ASA/Comair demand came about, I might have entertained the idea of some restricted type of farm program. Now? I don't even want to bring up the subject until after C2K has been completed. I simply won't allow the distraction; can't be bothered with it for the moment. They have, for the moment at least, lost an excellent, and very large ally.
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Well if DL management keeps going the way it is going, ComAir will be defunct, they will run mainline into the ground and then merger them into ASA or SkyWest. Looks like there may only be one list left when all of this is over. Yet again, looks like CO and WN are showing profits in Q2.
