DeltaConnection carriers file a petition for one list
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Peter,
what do you not understand?
The company I fly for has 1280 pilots, 1000 of them have been there less than 6 years, and only 100 of them have more than 15 years. I am #489 out of 1280+(30/month) and I've been there 2.5 years. Upgrade on the E-120 is 11 months, ATR 2 yrs, CRJ 3 years....most 4-5 year guys are either gone to the majors, or will be with in months.
What part of stepping stone do you need explained?
And do you know what the NMB is? (I know what they told us regarding our last contract being the best any "regional" airline will ever see!)
You make mainline pilots seem very out of touch with your question. Yet I happen to know many, and they aren't soo out of touch.
Oh, and another thing. Last contract for ASA, the strike vote for retirement was 9%.
Does that sound like a career minded pilot group to you?
what do you not understand?
The company I fly for has 1280 pilots, 1000 of them have been there less than 6 years, and only 100 of them have more than 15 years. I am #489 out of 1280+(30/month) and I've been there 2.5 years. Upgrade on the E-120 is 11 months, ATR 2 yrs, CRJ 3 years....most 4-5 year guys are either gone to the majors, or will be with in months.
What part of stepping stone do you need explained?
And do you know what the NMB is? (I know what they told us regarding our last contract being the best any "regional" airline will ever see!)
You make mainline pilots seem very out of touch with your question. Yet I happen to know many, and they aren't soo out of touch.
Oh, and another thing. Last contract for ASA, the strike vote for retirement was 9%.
Does that sound like a career minded pilot group to you?
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Airbubba and Peter...
There are some very reasonable positions being advanced here.I guess that your intransigence is a remnant of a previous state of affairs, but a wholly owned subsidiary is different than a simple codesharing partner.
You are saying that you are opposed to an 'end-tail' merger(no ill effect on the current DAL list) of the lists based on a perception of a 'back-door'.To deny that Comair and ASA pilots are employed by DAL now, is to give licence to all sorts of shenanigans by management...'whipsaw' comes to mind, particularly at the bottom of the DAL seniority/equipment list where there is most likely to be an 'overlap' in the type of flying and nature of the jobs (vis a vis the regionals).
You are also saying that you are against a merged list(end-tail), in order to protect slots for DAL pilots YET to be hired?...And all in the name of an interview/medical process?...This is an embittered logic. Anyone who has been in this business for a long time knows what a poor determinant of a candidates suitability an interview is.Didn't you get briefed by your buds (who got there first),as to the content of all the various interviews?
If you have confidence in the ability of your training dept. to weed out the 'shrubs'.then you don't have to worry about the denigration of standards.
Think of the benefits of a unified pilot list.Solidarity at negotiation time, and the company will also be able to manage their resources as they see fit,as market forces require, without having to also fight a disparate, fractious, pilot groups...win-win!
CHEERS!
[This message has been edited by Holodek7 (edited 05 August 2000).]
There are some very reasonable positions being advanced here.I guess that your intransigence is a remnant of a previous state of affairs, but a wholly owned subsidiary is different than a simple codesharing partner.
You are saying that you are opposed to an 'end-tail' merger(no ill effect on the current DAL list) of the lists based on a perception of a 'back-door'.To deny that Comair and ASA pilots are employed by DAL now, is to give licence to all sorts of shenanigans by management...'whipsaw' comes to mind, particularly at the bottom of the DAL seniority/equipment list where there is most likely to be an 'overlap' in the type of flying and nature of the jobs (vis a vis the regionals).
You are also saying that you are against a merged list(end-tail), in order to protect slots for DAL pilots YET to be hired?...And all in the name of an interview/medical process?...This is an embittered logic. Anyone who has been in this business for a long time knows what a poor determinant of a candidates suitability an interview is.Didn't you get briefed by your buds (who got there first),as to the content of all the various interviews?
If you have confidence in the ability of your training dept. to weed out the 'shrubs'.then you don't have to worry about the denigration of standards.
Think of the benefits of a unified pilot list.Solidarity at negotiation time, and the company will also be able to manage their resources as they see fit,as market forces require, without having to also fight a disparate, fractious, pilot groups...win-win!
CHEERS!
[This message has been edited by Holodek7 (edited 05 August 2000).]
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Ok guys lets have a visit to hotel reality, If they could, the majors would transfer ALL their routes to their regional affiliates - Why? Cos regionals have a lower cost base.
revenue X - lower cost base = larger profit
Naturally, the big guys would like to see the end of scope - can you blame them? The boys in Atlanta would cream their jeans. Get their hands on those shiny new CRJ700/900s ERJ170/190s for a start - then what the hell, if the market demands put 737s, 757s "Ah hear them limeys over 't BA run 777s on a 300nm route, then there's them ole boys out in Japan with them 74SRs goddamn"
Remember, the suits worth is measured by the bottom line after all.
So never mind all this "I bust my nuts for x years getting where I am only to have some young wet-behind-the-ears puppy get hired into the mainline before me" stuff, the question you need to ask is "Is it better for my long term earning potential to have the lists merge (and possibly make it easier for scope to be relaxed or abandoned altogether) or not? Frankly my dears, anything else is just bulls@it.
revenue X - lower cost base = larger profit
Naturally, the big guys would like to see the end of scope - can you blame them? The boys in Atlanta would cream their jeans. Get their hands on those shiny new CRJ700/900s ERJ170/190s for a start - then what the hell, if the market demands put 737s, 757s "Ah hear them limeys over 't BA run 777s on a 300nm route, then there's them ole boys out in Japan with them 74SRs goddamn"
Remember, the suits worth is measured by the bottom line after all.
So never mind all this "I bust my nuts for x years getting where I am only to have some young wet-behind-the-ears puppy get hired into the mainline before me" stuff, the question you need to ask is "Is it better for my long term earning potential to have the lists merge (and possibly make it easier for scope to be relaxed or abandoned altogether) or not? Frankly my dears, anything else is just bulls@it.
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Redtail:
Amen.
Delta C. You obviously don't understand the cencept you're pushing. The NMB is the National Mediation Board. They provide, when requested , a mediator. A mediator does nothing but try to "split the baby". They have no authority whatsoever to send anyone back to work. They can't even order anyone into a locked room to solve their differences. What they can do is "suggest", or proffer, both parties submit to "binding arbitration", meaning, argue your case, and let someone else decide for you. The NMB is nothing more than that. The concept you allude to has been used only once in recent times, with the AA pilot strike, when Clinton sent them back to work. P.E.B. stands for Presidential Emergency Board. Loss of AA lift, to the tune of 20% of U.S. capacity, IS/WAS a threat to the economy. Not to mention APA had no AFL-CIO affiliation... Whats the combined market share of ASA/Comair? Probably wouldn't even make the newspapers.
I need the part explained of how we're trading the stepping stone concept for a big 3 seniority number. I understand the whipsawing going on. Didn't say I agreed with it. And if guys are moving to the majors after 4 years.......? I view you (the ones pushing) as the bunch of opportunists that you are. If you could only get 9% of the pilot group to strike for a pension, what percentage did you get to persue a seniority integration? 100%? Sounds like a career minded pilot group to me. Just grab a number.
Refresh my memory. What was my question?
Holodek7
Never said I was opposed to a staple. I'm challenging you. Show me where I said that. Delta Connector has alluded to the impotence of the pilot group in question with statments like, 'congress' won't allow it, scope will be eroded..........passing the buck.
Fact is, the RLA provides the tools necessary to FIX this yourselves.
I'm against a pure flow through, whereas EVERY guy gets a number. Don't try and twist my statements. Solidarity at negotiations time? OK, lets see some. Show us what ya got.
ACE RIMMER. Bad info. RJ's cost per seat mile exceed larger types every time. Labor packages are much lower........
Cheers!
[This message has been edited by Petergozinya (edited 01 August 2000).]
The Railway Labor Act needs to be changed. It takes away from the union and drags out negotiations far too long.
Delta C. You obviously don't understand the cencept you're pushing. The NMB is the National Mediation Board. They provide, when requested , a mediator. A mediator does nothing but try to "split the baby". They have no authority whatsoever to send anyone back to work. They can't even order anyone into a locked room to solve their differences. What they can do is "suggest", or proffer, both parties submit to "binding arbitration", meaning, argue your case, and let someone else decide for you. The NMB is nothing more than that. The concept you allude to has been used only once in recent times, with the AA pilot strike, when Clinton sent them back to work. P.E.B. stands for Presidential Emergency Board. Loss of AA lift, to the tune of 20% of U.S. capacity, IS/WAS a threat to the economy. Not to mention APA had no AFL-CIO affiliation... Whats the combined market share of ASA/Comair? Probably wouldn't even make the newspapers.
What part of stepping stone do you need explained?
You make mainline pilots seem very out of touch with your question. Yet I happen to know many, and they aren't soo out of touch.
Holodek7
You are saying that you are opposed to an 'end-tail' merger(no ill effect on the current DAL list) of the lists based on a perception of a 'back-door'.To deny that Comair and ASA pilots aren't employed by DAL now, is to give licence to all sorts of shenanigans by management...'whipsaw' comes to mind, particularly at the bottom of the DAL seniority/equipment list where there is most likely to be an 'overlap' in the type of flying and nature of the jobs (vis a vis the regionals).
Over time DAL management (and congress) will erode scope language and soon all or most of the domestic (ASA/Comair fly to Mexico and Canada already) flying may happen under a different seniority list than that of DALPA.
I'm against a pure flow through, whereas EVERY guy gets a number. Don't try and twist my statements. Solidarity at negotiations time? OK, lets see some. Show us what ya got.
ACE RIMMER. Bad info. RJ's cost per seat mile exceed larger types every time. Labor packages are much lower........
Cheers!
[This message has been edited by Petergozinya (edited 01 August 2000).]
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Peter,
The question was: You wanted me to substantiate my claim that ASA is a stepping stone and that the NMB didn't tell us that our contract was as good as it gets for a "regional," if I understood you right.
I answered both:
A. We are all career minded, towards a job at the majors and not ASA, thus ASA will continue to be a stepping stone for most of us, and thus the wages there will stagnate due to a lack of interest and pilot involvement. This will lend to management's ability to grow the place while keeping productivity high and REPLACING DAL flying with point to point RJ50 70 and larger!
If nothing changes, this will happen over the next 10 years, I'll bet my career on it!
B. The NMB told our negotiations committee members that they weren't going to get a better deal than we got (which was crap! Especially on the work rules front), and that the alternative was a strike. Which brings me to the other question. I refer you to my point "A," the strike vote on most items was not a majority as most of us don't give a "$@%@$^% about ASA, we are aiming for DAL,UAL,AMR etc...
Do you see a pattern?
And oh BTW, most ASA pilots didn't know anything about the PID until the day it was announced. Most ASA pilot wish that the wording had been more friendly, but you are dealing with people(MEC) who see DALPA's scope talks as an afront to them. Most ASA pilots don't expect special treatment by the DAL MEC, staple is what the majority of us find to be a fair solution. Finally, I personally have a high chance at an interview with in the year, at DAL and UAL and will take the first offer I get, and then, will maintain my position that we NEED one list! Staple job!
Am I clear?
The question was: You wanted me to substantiate my claim that ASA is a stepping stone and that the NMB didn't tell us that our contract was as good as it gets for a "regional," if I understood you right.
I answered both:
A. We are all career minded, towards a job at the majors and not ASA, thus ASA will continue to be a stepping stone for most of us, and thus the wages there will stagnate due to a lack of interest and pilot involvement. This will lend to management's ability to grow the place while keeping productivity high and REPLACING DAL flying with point to point RJ50 70 and larger!
If nothing changes, this will happen over the next 10 years, I'll bet my career on it!
B. The NMB told our negotiations committee members that they weren't going to get a better deal than we got (which was crap! Especially on the work rules front), and that the alternative was a strike. Which brings me to the other question. I refer you to my point "A," the strike vote on most items was not a majority as most of us don't give a "$@%@$^% about ASA, we are aiming for DAL,UAL,AMR etc...
Do you see a pattern?
And oh BTW, most ASA pilots didn't know anything about the PID until the day it was announced. Most ASA pilot wish that the wording had been more friendly, but you are dealing with people(MEC) who see DALPA's scope talks as an afront to them. Most ASA pilots don't expect special treatment by the DAL MEC, staple is what the majority of us find to be a fair solution. Finally, I personally have a high chance at an interview with in the year, at DAL and UAL and will take the first offer I get, and then, will maintain my position that we NEED one list! Staple job!
Am I clear?
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Peter...
If you will look,you will see that I addressed my post to you and Airbubba.Sorry for that, but as you can see I have few posts,and typing skills to boot.It was easier for me to address to both of you,because of your 'like-minded' vitriol.
My post was not meant to be a point by point rebuttal as much as a desire to find out the nature of your opposition while advancing my thoughts on why it would be good.
I'm neither DAL,ASA,or Comair, so I really know little about their wages and work conditions.I agree with the ideal that in 'order to preserve the profession'the regionals should have looked in the mirror first and made a bigger effort to improve their own lot, but the reality is that will only happen during economic down cycles, with no hiring.During a boom cycle,people vote with their feet instead of the strike ballot.Particularly if the company(s) involved are generally viewed as only a 'stepping-stone' by a large portion (read junior or low years of service) of their membership.This won't change.
If you don't take the opportunity to fix this now, it will be like wiping your ass with a hula-hoop...'The sh*t never quits!'.You will always be fighting over scope issues.Your negotiating team will have to waste time on this every contract.
My point?...Instead of looking at why you DON'T want it to happen (windfall gains etc),why not try to see the advantages in it, especially, long-term.Comair and ASA (because of their young workforce) need the stability and strength of the DAL group to help them help themselves.All will benefit(think longterm).
There are many ways to integrate a list, and surely one can be found to meet the needs of all (and certainly not affecting the current DAL list a bit!).
CHEERS!
If you will look,you will see that I addressed my post to you and Airbubba.Sorry for that, but as you can see I have few posts,and typing skills to boot.It was easier for me to address to both of you,because of your 'like-minded' vitriol.
My post was not meant to be a point by point rebuttal as much as a desire to find out the nature of your opposition while advancing my thoughts on why it would be good.
I'm neither DAL,ASA,or Comair, so I really know little about their wages and work conditions.I agree with the ideal that in 'order to preserve the profession'the regionals should have looked in the mirror first and made a bigger effort to improve their own lot, but the reality is that will only happen during economic down cycles, with no hiring.During a boom cycle,people vote with their feet instead of the strike ballot.Particularly if the company(s) involved are generally viewed as only a 'stepping-stone' by a large portion (read junior or low years of service) of their membership.This won't change.
If you don't take the opportunity to fix this now, it will be like wiping your ass with a hula-hoop...'The sh*t never quits!'.You will always be fighting over scope issues.Your negotiating team will have to waste time on this every contract.
My point?...Instead of looking at why you DON'T want it to happen (windfall gains etc),why not try to see the advantages in it, especially, long-term.Comair and ASA (because of their young workforce) need the stability and strength of the DAL group to help them help themselves.All will benefit(think longterm).
There are many ways to integrate a list, and surely one can be found to meet the needs of all (and certainly not affecting the current DAL list a bit!).
CHEERS!
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The BIG question that Peter et al are alluding to, ( and a lot of the guys driving hiring ) is:
Where do you put the military guy with 5000 heavy or jet hours, or someone leaving TWA, for example, with UMPTEENTHOUSAND jet hours?
No one in their right minds would put them below a new ERAU grad at the bottom of a stapled list. Like it or not, DAL, UAL, AA are looking for these people first and foremost. I know , I work with Recruitment occasionally. We'll take 757 PIC over EMB-120 P2 anytime. Fact: they're less likely to have a washout. Have a look at our last 3 year's hiring stats/ fails...what background/experience did they have? This is an extremely expensive business....The fact is, the military/other big jet guys& gals are a sure bet. No explaining to have to do to the Chief Pilot.....
Right now, we're chronically short, looking to put bums in seats asap, with minimal chance of a sim/oral bust. New hires are going straight to the 767 International right now - I don't care what you think, DC, a new grad out of Comair Acad would be a training risk in this situation ( through no fault of his own...). Don't get me wrong: the top of Comair/ ASA would be a blessing in this situation - they've got plenty of experience ( look at the Eagle flow-throughs ), but what if the bottom guy was able to suddenly bid and hold the 767? Now what?
DeltaC and the rest need to understand that a system would have to worked out with a mainline start point for these non-ASA/ Comair people. What are you left with? A flow-through by any other name with some direct entrants thrown in.
Where do you put the military guy with 5000 heavy or jet hours, or someone leaving TWA, for example, with UMPTEENTHOUSAND jet hours?
No one in their right minds would put them below a new ERAU grad at the bottom of a stapled list. Like it or not, DAL, UAL, AA are looking for these people first and foremost. I know , I work with Recruitment occasionally. We'll take 757 PIC over EMB-120 P2 anytime. Fact: they're less likely to have a washout. Have a look at our last 3 year's hiring stats/ fails...what background/experience did they have? This is an extremely expensive business....The fact is, the military/other big jet guys& gals are a sure bet. No explaining to have to do to the Chief Pilot.....
Right now, we're chronically short, looking to put bums in seats asap, with minimal chance of a sim/oral bust. New hires are going straight to the 767 International right now - I don't care what you think, DC, a new grad out of Comair Acad would be a training risk in this situation ( through no fault of his own...). Don't get me wrong: the top of Comair/ ASA would be a blessing in this situation - they've got plenty of experience ( look at the Eagle flow-throughs ), but what if the bottom guy was able to suddenly bid and hold the 767? Now what?
DeltaC and the rest need to understand that a system would have to worked out with a mainline start point for these non-ASA/ Comair people. What are you left with? A flow-through by any other name with some direct entrants thrown in.
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All a very interesting discussion, I agree with a little of both sides...
But I agree more that no 'list merger' would accomplish the desired results for the RJ guys.
Go the UPAS way, get your letters of recommendation and use the time till you're called to learn all you can about their interview process.
I left the military with over 6000 hours of C-141 and C-17 time (still in the reserves though to make Atlas livable) and I wait for the Delta letter, the UAL call and the AA letter/call. It's been right at 12 months so they should start for a WASPY guy like me.
While I wait, I study, talk to my buds who are there and keep myself as sharp as possible till I get the opportunity to 'talk my way' into that career job.
Best of luck to all you regional guys, The ones I've jumpseated with were very professional, I'd be happy to FO for any of you at the 'bigs'!
But I agree more that no 'list merger' would accomplish the desired results for the RJ guys.
Go the UPAS way, get your letters of recommendation and use the time till you're called to learn all you can about their interview process.
I left the military with over 6000 hours of C-141 and C-17 time (still in the reserves though to make Atlas livable) and I wait for the Delta letter, the UAL call and the AA letter/call. It's been right at 12 months so they should start for a WASPY guy like me.
While I wait, I study, talk to my buds who are there and keep myself as sharp as possible till I get the opportunity to 'talk my way' into that career job.
Best of luck to all you regional guys, The ones I've jumpseated with were very professional, I'd be happy to FO for any of you at the 'bigs'!
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A PAX here who flies far too often on ASA and TSA. Now, how can you pilots believe a word management tells you? Look how they run the airlines. I find it hard to believe you still fly for ASA or TSA. The operations division in Atlanta need to go back to school and learn how to read and write, let alone speak English. You think management cares at all about you? They certainly don't care at all about the PAX. And the senior pilots at DL who want to protect their seniority, I can understand why. Operations at DL are well run and "oh dear" if they take on the any of the problems from ASA/TSA. If I were you guys/gals at ASA/TSA, I would try and get all I could get knowing that management does not really care at all about you or us passenger, just the bottom line. If I were the main line old time DL pilots, I would fight you tooth and nail to keep the mess you have to deal with every day far away from me. There you have it, a classic battle. Who is right and who is wrong? You will have to find the middle of the road and I really don;t care. just so long as you try and fix the horrible operations of ASA/TSA. "Sorry it took us 3 hours to determine that the equipment was actually already at the gate and ready to board!"
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JRF - AMEN BROTHER!
As for hiring high time pilots, I agree that they should go right to the mainline, while a ratio 50/50 are hired from the "regional." Call that a flow-through, I don't care. The fact is that there needs to be a career tie to both, since the "regional" is where the growth is, and we need to check managements whipsaw with a unified pilot group.
PS I have my 3 letters of rec AT DAL, and only need some more flight time to add to my 2500TT and 200PIC before I get the call. When I do, my tune will not change.
As for hiring high time pilots, I agree that they should go right to the mainline, while a ratio 50/50 are hired from the "regional." Call that a flow-through, I don't care. The fact is that there needs to be a career tie to both, since the "regional" is where the growth is, and we need to check managements whipsaw with a unified pilot group.
PS I have my 3 letters of rec AT DAL, and only need some more flight time to add to my 2500TT and 200PIC before I get the call. When I do, my tune will not change.
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Looks like things are heating up again. Does DL management care about anyone? It seems with the new FF 2001 rules the PAX are unhappy, the pilots must be fed up, what is DL really up to?
http://www.aviationnow.com/TwoShare/...73123822960136
http://www.aviationnow.com/TwoShare/...73123822960136
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Seems as if memories are very dim at Delta. I remember the ALPA fragmentation policy trumpeted by Hank Duffy (then ALPA president and DL pilot) to the Eastern Pilot group. "Fight the fight, get rid of Lorenzo, and if, per chance, your airline goes away in the battle, don't worry, because the ALPA Fragmentatin Policy will protect you - the crews will go with the airplanes." NOT. Delta ended up with a rather large bunch of Eastern aircraft, exactly 2 scab pilots, and a very big Christmas bonus. If the connectors can get on the DL list, fine. And as stated in other posts, you really do want DL pilots flying DL planes, because pretty soon you all mght be working for connector pay. That is all.
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The way I see it, one seniority list is the way it should be at Delta or when any major wants to run a subsiary airline. It should be clear from the beginning that if Delta wants to own their subsidiaries, then Delta pilots will be doing the flying. Even if that means taking a loss because a Delta captain on the RJ can not be paid less than a Delta heavy jet FO. As far as scope clauses go, I do not think the one company should regulate how many RJs the smaller company flies. It should be contractually agreed on that United, for example, can take any route away at any time from their Express partner. This will keep it straight forward that the RJs are developing the route for something larger someday. If growth continues the way forecasters predict eventually RJs will lose these routes to Boeings and Airbusses. But if United or Delta or whichever company does not like that a regional is making such large profits, then come to the table with enough money and be prepared to pay the consequences. ie one pilot group per airline
I can see the problem though and simpithize with those pilots that want a second career (military to civilian or corporate to major). This will be a growing problem and pilots will have to realize this situation early on in their careers. It would make me sick, if I was a colonel or general and then was told that I was going to have to become an RJ FO before I was able to fly heavies. (I say RJ FO because I do not think that a major would dare own a turboprop in this day and age.) That is just my opinion and I look forward to hearing any questions or comments. Thanks.
I can see the problem though and simpithize with those pilots that want a second career (military to civilian or corporate to major). This will be a growing problem and pilots will have to realize this situation early on in their careers. It would make me sick, if I was a colonel or general and then was told that I was going to have to become an RJ FO before I was able to fly heavies. (I say RJ FO because I do not think that a major would dare own a turboprop in this day and age.) That is just my opinion and I look forward to hearing any questions or comments. Thanks.
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MTB:
Do not be fooled by the claim that the RJ's will grow the routes for the Heavies. Since deregulation the big 3 have operated a hub and spoke system to fill the big toys - the RJ's offer a way around the hubs, with lower pay and benefits and less hub congestion.
Example:
Situation today
3 RJ's 1 RJ flies 50 pax LBB - DFW
1 RJ flies 50 pax AMA - DFW
1 RJ flies 50 pax MID - DFW
1 757 then flies 150 pax DFW - Nashville
Situation if SCOPE clauses are got rid of:
3 RJ's 1 RJ flies 50 pax LBB-Nashville
1 RJ flies 50 pax AMA-Nashville
1 RJ flies 50 pax MID-Nashville
1 757 PARKED in desert
3 less major-pay jobs for DeltaConnector and his buddies; management bonuses all round.
Think about it......
Do not be fooled by the claim that the RJ's will grow the routes for the Heavies. Since deregulation the big 3 have operated a hub and spoke system to fill the big toys - the RJ's offer a way around the hubs, with lower pay and benefits and less hub congestion.
Example:
Situation today
3 RJ's 1 RJ flies 50 pax LBB - DFW
1 RJ flies 50 pax AMA - DFW
1 RJ flies 50 pax MID - DFW
1 757 then flies 150 pax DFW - Nashville
Situation if SCOPE clauses are got rid of:
3 RJ's 1 RJ flies 50 pax LBB-Nashville
1 RJ flies 50 pax AMA-Nashville
1 RJ flies 50 pax MID-Nashville
1 757 PARKED in desert
3 less major-pay jobs for DeltaConnector and his buddies; management bonuses all round.
Think about it......
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Oh, so you're subbing the Dallas hub for a Nashville hub? You're example makes no sense. The money for the big three is in the front section and all the bells and whistles associated with mainline product. DAL has the ability to do exactly what you propose today. Why hasn't it happened? The F/C section on a non-mainline jet has only been done by Mesaba. Competitively speaking, the RJ's (non mesaba) would lose every time. BIG time. Do you really think something like that would work? Hmmm. Now lets see. I'm Joe businessman. I have a choice to go on a big airplane or a little airplane. I fly once a week. I pay through the nose (translation-bread and butter for the the company). I can go nonstop on a flying sardine can that I can't even stand up to take a **** in, (and I'm 5'7") or I can get a F/C upgrade (because I paid...well, my company paid through the nose) and hang in the 'club' until boarding time..... Oh God. I could go on and on and on about this. Sorry can't see that one happening.
[This message has been edited by Petergozinya (edited 27 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Petergozinya (edited 27 August 2000).]
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RAAMJET, I think I understand what you are trying to say. However for that logic to be valid all of the 50 pax flying LBB-DFW, MAF-DFW and AMA-DFW would have to be connecting to the DFW-BNA flight. This senario is remote to say the least unless there was a free beer and barbeque reunion for West Texans at the Grand Ole Opry. Assuming you are an AA pilot, do you think the APA TA will ratify.? Probably no need to ask.! All the best.....
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Peter: you've missed the point completely. Yes, I could have made a better example, but I was trying to keep it simple. Yes, our research here shows that Joe business-man at the outport would prefer ANYTHING to the winter chaos at the big hubs caused by airspace congestion ( primarily, my ATC manager neighbour tells me, because RJ's are now operating off the same runways as the heavies, and using the same upper airspace that the props didn't use to use....).
Like it or not, HUB BYPASS operations by RJ's are a very real threat to your career.
Your point about F/C is well made - look at the Legend /AA fight out of DAL (both all-f/c).
Idol: I'm not sure now what the result will be.... very mixed opinions on the flightdeck.
It's going to have a huge effect either way...let's hope it's not acrimonious, the travelling public have had quite enough for one year.
Like it or not, HUB BYPASS operations by RJ's are a very real threat to your career.
Your point about F/C is well made - look at the Legend /AA fight out of DAL (both all-f/c).
Idol: I'm not sure now what the result will be.... very mixed opinions on the flightdeck.
It's going to have a huge effect either way...let's hope it's not acrimonious, the travelling public have had quite enough for one year.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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>>Seems as if memories are very dim at Delta. I remember the ALPA fragmentation policy trumpeted by Hank Duffy (then ALPA president and DL pilot) to the Eastern Pilot group. "Fight the fight, get rid of Lorenzo, and if, per chance, your airline goes away in the battle, don't worry, because the ALPA Fragmentatin Policy will protect you - the crews will go with the airplanes." NOT. Delta ended up with a rather large bunch of Eastern aircraft, exactly 2 scab pilots, and a very big Christmas bonus.<<
Yep, that's exactly how I remember it as well. Hank Duffy's airline benefited more from the Eastern strike than any of the other carriers. "Don't worry son, the union will take care of you..."
Yep, that's exactly how I remember it as well. Hank Duffy's airline benefited more from the Eastern strike than any of the other carriers. "Don't worry son, the union will take care of you..."
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Like it or not, HUB BYPASS operations by RJ's are a very real threat to your career.
So, when someone floats an example than works, I'll be scared. Hasn't happened yet. Delta has all the tools, as does Continental. 50 seats will never kill a 757 in a market that supports a 757. Never happen. 757 wins every time, in every respect.
