DeltaConnection carriers file a petition for one list
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Whenever I hear plans of flowthrough agreements etc, I have to ask this question. " What about the military guys?" Do you feel that if they want a job at Delta, for ex, they would have to get hired at Comair and work their way up? or do you plan on instituting some system where they can bypass the regional pilots and go directly to mainline? I left the Air Force with 4400 hours of C-141 time, would this qualify me to "go direct to mainline?" Not trying to start a fight, just curious what people think?
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I am sure that all the Captains at ASA/Comair will love to go to the bottom of the seniority list with the one year probation and the associated paycut. They have no dreams of somehow finding themselves climbing up the ladder based on some list integration sceme. And all those guys right out of college with 50 hours of ME time can just walk into Delta, bypassing the thousands of better qualified applicants who have worked theis butts off to get this far.
Hey boys and girls. Do the UPAS thing, fill out your application, and wait to be called alongside your peers. Just my 2 cents worth.
Hey boys and girls. Do the UPAS thing, fill out your application, and wait to be called alongside your peers. Just my 2 cents worth.
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>>How does it work at Air Canada? Are the RJ pilots mainline Air Canada? How did it get that way?<<
It doesn't work at Air Canada... CALPA attempted to put the "regionals" on the Air Canada seniority list with retroactive dates of hire (as at SAS). AC pilots took a stand against this nonsense and left CALPA to form ACPA. Many of the AC pilots had left the regionals to join AC, they would have watched their buddies from the commuters come over ahead of them, so they bolted CALPA and kept their list intact.
At least, until now of course, ACPA accepted mediation yesterday to solve issues including merger of the Candian pilots (represented by CALPA) onto their list.
It doesn't work at Air Canada... CALPA attempted to put the "regionals" on the Air Canada seniority list with retroactive dates of hire (as at SAS). AC pilots took a stand against this nonsense and left CALPA to form ACPA. Many of the AC pilots had left the regionals to join AC, they would have watched their buddies from the commuters come over ahead of them, so they bolted CALPA and kept their list intact.
At least, until now of course, ACPA accepted mediation yesterday to solve issues including merger of the Candian pilots (represented by CALPA) onto their list.
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Military pilot with 4400 hrs is atleas the same as civil with 5500 hrs. You can walk right into a major. But this isn't about jobs for pilots at the regionals, as much as it's about erosion of the profession.
Getting $100K for an RJ is a done deal. Comair will get atleast that in their contract, the problem is that as the 416 RJ's DAL orders make their way to ASA/Comair, the average pilot will be making less, by vertue of the fact that the average pilot will fly an RJ and not a 737 or larger.
Anyway, I start a 3 day trip in the morning, I'll catch up with you in 3 days.
Getting $100K for an RJ is a done deal. Comair will get atleast that in their contract, the problem is that as the 416 RJ's DAL orders make their way to ASA/Comair, the average pilot will be making less, by vertue of the fact that the average pilot will fly an RJ and not a 737 or larger.
Anyway, I start a 3 day trip in the morning, I'll catch up with you in 3 days.
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Captain Bob,
Thanks for the advice, however, I did go straight to a very good major 6 years ago, and life is good. But back in 1994 when I was looking for a job, I applied to Continental Airlines and was told that I had to apply at CAL Express because at the time they had an integrated seniority list with CAL. Bottom line with a wife and 2 kids, house etc.. and 32years old, I felt I already paid my dues with Uncle Sam and wasnt ready to fly a Beech 1900 for 16,000 a year, so I didnt even consider CAL, and neither did any of my military buddies. I thought it was a bad idea for this reason. I understand CAL has changed this system, but if there are any CAL pilots in Pprune land let us know what you think.
Thanks for the advice, however, I did go straight to a very good major 6 years ago, and life is good. But back in 1994 when I was looking for a job, I applied to Continental Airlines and was told that I had to apply at CAL Express because at the time they had an integrated seniority list with CAL. Bottom line with a wife and 2 kids, house etc.. and 32years old, I felt I already paid my dues with Uncle Sam and wasnt ready to fly a Beech 1900 for 16,000 a year, so I didnt even consider CAL, and neither did any of my military buddies. I thought it was a bad idea for this reason. I understand CAL has changed this system, but if there are any CAL pilots in Pprune land let us know what you think.
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I can see where the commuter pilots would have a lot more enthusiasm for this deal than the Real Deltoids...
From aviationnow.com :
ASA, Comair, Delta Pilots
Ponder Union Merger
by Denise Marois
Pilots at Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, want their unions to merge with Delta’s ALPA unit to keep management from whipsawing -- when management plays one union group against another. Unions also want to ensure that Delta’s pilot contract does not contain restrictions on regional jet operations that would hurt pilots at Comair and ASA.
About 250 pilots turned up at a rally in Cincinnati yesterday in support of the seniority list merger. Comair ALPA Master Executive Council Chairman J.C. Lawson says a merger of the seniority lists would protect pilot careers at all three airlines. “Any artificial restrictions placed upon an airline by another is not in the spirit of what ALPA is all about,” told the rally. Merging seniority lists would do away with artificial limits on flying for Comair or ASA pilots, Lawson says.
On Tuesday Comair and ASA pilots filed a joint resolution with ALPA International asking for implementation of the union’s merger and fragmentation policy among the three carriers. The resolution notes that pilots at ASA and Comair could lose more than $200 million in pay and benefits over the next five years if proposed changes in the Delta pilot scope clause restricting RJ operations growth go through.
The petition also notes that ALPA is faced with an “irreconcilable conflict of interest” in bargaining for scope protections for Delta pilots and for ASA and Comair pilots. It is “inappropriate for ALPA to support any scope language that would harm ASA and compare pilots to the benefit of the mainline Delta pilots,” the petition adds. ALPA spokesman John Mazor had not yet seen the petition as of yesterday.
The push to merge comes as Delta’s ALPA negotiates a contract that likely will include tighter limits on RJ expansion. Lawson said that with separate contracts, Delta is free to work one pilot group against another. “With one corporate owner and three contracts, it does not give ALPA the clout to deal with one pilot group and one contract,” Lawson notes. All those conflicts "disappear if we are merged as one pilot group,” he adds
From aviationnow.com :
ASA, Comair, Delta Pilots
Ponder Union Merger
by Denise Marois
Pilots at Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, want their unions to merge with Delta’s ALPA unit to keep management from whipsawing -- when management plays one union group against another. Unions also want to ensure that Delta’s pilot contract does not contain restrictions on regional jet operations that would hurt pilots at Comair and ASA.
About 250 pilots turned up at a rally in Cincinnati yesterday in support of the seniority list merger. Comair ALPA Master Executive Council Chairman J.C. Lawson says a merger of the seniority lists would protect pilot careers at all three airlines. “Any artificial restrictions placed upon an airline by another is not in the spirit of what ALPA is all about,” told the rally. Merging seniority lists would do away with artificial limits on flying for Comair or ASA pilots, Lawson says.
On Tuesday Comair and ASA pilots filed a joint resolution with ALPA International asking for implementation of the union’s merger and fragmentation policy among the three carriers. The resolution notes that pilots at ASA and Comair could lose more than $200 million in pay and benefits over the next five years if proposed changes in the Delta pilot scope clause restricting RJ operations growth go through.
The petition also notes that ALPA is faced with an “irreconcilable conflict of interest” in bargaining for scope protections for Delta pilots and for ASA and Comair pilots. It is “inappropriate for ALPA to support any scope language that would harm ASA and compare pilots to the benefit of the mainline Delta pilots,” the petition adds. ALPA spokesman John Mazor had not yet seen the petition as of yesterday.
The push to merge comes as Delta’s ALPA negotiates a contract that likely will include tighter limits on RJ expansion. Lawson said that with separate contracts, Delta is free to work one pilot group against another. “With one corporate owner and three contracts, it does not give ALPA the clout to deal with one pilot group and one contract,” Lawson notes. All those conflicts "disappear if we are merged as one pilot group,” he adds
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Just to clarify my earlier thread....
Whilst I sympathise and admire the enthusiasm of ALL the pilots who wish to move from the regionals to the majors, the relaxation of Scope would be nothing short of a DISASTER for their careers, and could conceivably immediatly reduce hiring at the majors.
DeltaConnector: I think you understand that, but I can also see the point of your collegues who, for whatever reason, wish to remain at the regionals....Scope does not help them any.
Whilst I sympathise and admire the enthusiasm of ALL the pilots who wish to move from the regionals to the majors, the relaxation of Scope would be nothing short of a DISASTER for their careers, and could conceivably immediatly reduce hiring at the majors.
DeltaConnector: I think you understand that, but I can also see the point of your collegues who, for whatever reason, wish to remain at the regionals....Scope does not help them any.
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Representation of both regional and major carrier pilots by the same union is nothing more than conflict of interest and actually provides management with additional ammunition for use in the ongoing war against the scope clause. It would be better for the continued health of the industry (read pay and working conditions for pilots) if regional flight crews regardless of the logo painted on the aircraft were represented by a different union to that at the mainline. It would be a disaster to drag down mainline working conditions in order to bump up pay at the regionals, yet this is what will happen unless a strong scope clause stays in place and a sharp distinction is made between the regional and mainline elements of the combined operation.
I have flown commuter aircraft providing hub feed for a major airline with the associated logo painted on my shorthaul spamcan . This did not and should not entitle me to any flow through nor merging of seniority lists. Those seeking employment with the mainline for the enhanced pay and conditions on offer should fill out an application form and subsequently undergo the interview process where they may or may not be successful in securing a place for themselves at the bottom of the seniority list.
Last but not least, remember that the mainline has much to offer simply because the pilot group is prepared to and probably has been on strike to achieve a desirable employment package. I fail to recall when the last regional group walked out of the flight deck and took to the picket lines.
I have flown commuter aircraft providing hub feed for a major airline with the associated logo painted on my shorthaul spamcan . This did not and should not entitle me to any flow through nor merging of seniority lists. Those seeking employment with the mainline for the enhanced pay and conditions on offer should fill out an application form and subsequently undergo the interview process where they may or may not be successful in securing a place for themselves at the bottom of the seniority list.
Last but not least, remember that the mainline has much to offer simply because the pilot group is prepared to and probably has been on strike to achieve a desirable employment package. I fail to recall when the last regional group walked out of the flight deck and took to the picket lines.
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(I excerpted this from my own previous thread):
Having just spoken with a Delta 737 captain, I highly doubt the Delta pilots would allow any sort of "date-of-hire" integration of seniority lists. In fact, this pilot seemed very upset at the regional pilots and their apparent over-exuberance (super confidence).
To quote him verbatim: "They'll have to pry the gun away from my cold, dead hand before I let any regional pilot jump ahead of me in line after how hard I have worked to get here!"
He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.
I know that Delta's management will most likely use one pilot group against the other(the so-called "whipsaw"), but that is almost commonplace nowadays. American and Continental do the same with their regional feeders. Why should the Delta regional carriers expect any different?
I acknowledge that many of the regional pilots are highly skilled and professional, but do they really think Delta pilots are going to stand by and allow their list to be "infiltrated" by so-called "backdoor bandits" - quoting yet another Delta pilot. My bet is that the Delta pilots will quit ALPA before they allow that to happen.
Any of the ASA or Comair pilots think the Delta pilots will rollover or cede to your integration ideas? Any thoughts?
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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed pilot is king!
Having just spoken with a Delta 737 captain, I highly doubt the Delta pilots would allow any sort of "date-of-hire" integration of seniority lists. In fact, this pilot seemed very upset at the regional pilots and their apparent over-exuberance (super confidence).
To quote him verbatim: "They'll have to pry the gun away from my cold, dead hand before I let any regional pilot jump ahead of me in line after how hard I have worked to get here!"
He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.
I know that Delta's management will most likely use one pilot group against the other(the so-called "whipsaw"), but that is almost commonplace nowadays. American and Continental do the same with their regional feeders. Why should the Delta regional carriers expect any different?
I acknowledge that many of the regional pilots are highly skilled and professional, but do they really think Delta pilots are going to stand by and allow their list to be "infiltrated" by so-called "backdoor bandits" - quoting yet another Delta pilot. My bet is that the Delta pilots will quit ALPA before they allow that to happen.
Any of the ASA or Comair pilots think the Delta pilots will rollover or cede to your integration ideas? Any thoughts?
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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed pilot is king!
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>>He claimed that the Delta pilots would likely quit ALPA before they allowed that type of integration.<<
Not entirely far fetched, this is what happened at Air Canada with CALPA...
Not entirely far fetched, this is what happened at Air Canada with CALPA...
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I really don't intend to offend anyone here, but why such a huge controversy concerning flowthrough or integration? Why not try to raise your pay scales at ASA/Comair to a suitable level through your union. This whole flowthrough idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As a military pilot can I jump ahead of ASA/Comair and go directly to mainline? if YES, than wouldn'tASA and Comair pilots resent this? If NO, than how would Delta's mgmt feel about the loss of any chance of hiring highly skilled military pilots, especially given Delta's history of hiring only military types in the not to distant past. Bottom line, I always say the aviation business is alot like sports, you dont make the big bucks till you make it to the big leagues, whether its fair or not, but ASA/Comair are trying to say if they make it to the Yankee's single A farm team, they should be guarenteed a shot at the majors cause their in the Yankee org. I don't think that will ever fly.
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In many countries, like France where a personal friend of mine was hired as an AirBus FO with some 400TT they also hire military pilots with much more time.
So this isn't about where you learn to fly, skill is not a given for military, anymore than personality (a key in hiring pilots).
At ASA we have F-15 pilots (retired) F-16, F-18, etc....as well has military propdrivers, we have a lot of helocopter guys who needed fixed wing time, so it's not all about "experienc" 2000hrs of 121 experience at a regional airline is enough for anyone to take the right seat on a MD80.
As for bringing wages up at the regionals, this is a difficult process since the various mediations boards are always going to see them as "training grounds, and stepping stones to the majors." which to a degree they are. So with that said, the managements of the various airlines have the ability to grow these "regional" airlines and keep the overall level of wages down.
It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!
I say give us a good flow through(with no loopholes), and hire some from with in the regional and some from outside (50/50 ratio) and when hiring is slow, then hire them all at the regional.
So this isn't about where you learn to fly, skill is not a given for military, anymore than personality (a key in hiring pilots).
At ASA we have F-15 pilots (retired) F-16, F-18, etc....as well has military propdrivers, we have a lot of helocopter guys who needed fixed wing time, so it's not all about "experienc" 2000hrs of 121 experience at a regional airline is enough for anyone to take the right seat on a MD80.
As for bringing wages up at the regionals, this is a difficult process since the various mediations boards are always going to see them as "training grounds, and stepping stones to the majors." which to a degree they are. So with that said, the managements of the various airlines have the ability to grow these "regional" airlines and keep the overall level of wages down.
It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!
I say give us a good flow through(with no loopholes), and hire some from with in the regional and some from outside (50/50 ratio) and when hiring is slow, then hire them all at the regional.
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This is just one perspective, and I have nothing against regionals operating certain numbers of jets (i.e. 69 seats or less etc.). I have not been with regionals since the mid-80s, and sympathize with those regional pilots who desire to fly a jet someday, whether grey with a red tail, or red, white, blue or even silver...and finally earn more respect from the smug, ill-mannered (this often includes the successful-), ignorant passengers who lack any solid appreciation for the reliability/efficiency of 'prop-jets'. And when did any line pilot, who is not a negotiator or mgmt/evaluation pilot, have control over which aircraft is acquired by his employer?
As for hiring at the majors, where things have changed since the booming mid-80s, and were always difficult to stereotype or understand, i.e. some personnel (human resource) managers, with no flight training OR experience (except with silk ties and brown-nosing) were allowed to 'weed out' a guy or gal, simply based on some subjective personal reason, having absolutely nothing to do with flying abilities/experience.
Recently on Pprune, regarding necessary PIC turbine hours, someone posted info from United Airlines' recent flight experience requirements, which stated that the computer accepting data from pilot applications did NOT distinguish between turboprop and turbofan PIC hours. And so, IF this is also the case with other US major airlines' pilot requirements (other than where personal recomendations are an advantage), then the assumed advantage of flying a regional jet as Captain versus a Beech 1900, EMB-120 or ATR means nothing, as far as numbers go. The regional jet job might be used on turboprop routes.
Or, as at Delta, where their MEC (and its flock of sheep, mostly in ATL, who drank the company kool-aid without question) finally woke up to the sobering fact that their previous contracts had the loosest scope language in the US industry, in theory some COMAIR pilots probably won't get hired at Delta, since the CRJ already flies many previous Delta 737/MD-80 routes. Maybe they will be fortunate at other majors, partly thanks to tighter scope language.
Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]
As for hiring at the majors, where things have changed since the booming mid-80s, and were always difficult to stereotype or understand, i.e. some personnel (human resource) managers, with no flight training OR experience (except with silk ties and brown-nosing) were allowed to 'weed out' a guy or gal, simply based on some subjective personal reason, having absolutely nothing to do with flying abilities/experience.
Recently on Pprune, regarding necessary PIC turbine hours, someone posted info from United Airlines' recent flight experience requirements, which stated that the computer accepting data from pilot applications did NOT distinguish between turboprop and turbofan PIC hours. And so, IF this is also the case with other US major airlines' pilot requirements (other than where personal recomendations are an advantage), then the assumed advantage of flying a regional jet as Captain versus a Beech 1900, EMB-120 or ATR means nothing, as far as numbers go. The regional jet job might be used on turboprop routes.
Or, as at Delta, where their MEC (and its flock of sheep, mostly in ATL, who drank the company kool-aid without question) finally woke up to the sobering fact that their previous contracts had the loosest scope language in the US industry, in theory some COMAIR pilots probably won't get hired at Delta, since the CRJ already flies many previous Delta 737/MD-80 routes. Maybe they will be fortunate at other majors, partly thanks to tighter scope language.
Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 28 July 2000).]
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Or, as at Delta, where their MEC (and its flock of sheep, mostly in ATL, who drank the company kool-aid without question) finally woke up to the sobering fact that their previous contracts had the loosest scope language in the US industry, in theory some COMAIR pilots probably won't get hired at Delta, since the CRJ already flies many previous Delta 737/MD-80 routes. Maybe they will be fortunate at other majors, partly thanks to tighter scope language.
Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost
Fighting yesterday's battle today can never recover those who have already been lost
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Delta Connector
I've seen things go deep into left field, but this one takes the cake. Anything to substantiate your claim? 
As for bringing wages up at the regionals, this is a difficult process since the various mediations boards are always going to see them as "training grounds, and stepping stones to the majors." which to a degree they are. So with that said, the managements of the various airlines have the ability to grow these "regional" airlines and keep the overall level of wages down.
It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!
It's not as simple as just going on strike, the NMB would send you back to work with a 5% raise!
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My, Flathatter. You´re back. Thought that you had changed your name!!
F.Y.I. Mainline union has always included rep´s from the Commuter dept. And I haven´t met anyone, apart from the "famous few" pilots, that don´t agree with the deal!
"Backstabbing everyone"" is NOT what everyone thinks that happened. You know so much about what happens at SAS, so you must be.... nooooe, not with what you said on the other thread. A rejected SC maybe?... noooee. What then.
To the rest of you, sorry that I hijacked the thread for a while, just letting you know that there are ways to "merge" lists, where 99% are happy. The last 1% will bitch no matter what happens!!
F.Y.I. Mainline union has always included rep´s from the Commuter dept. And I haven´t met anyone, apart from the "famous few" pilots, that don´t agree with the deal!
"Backstabbing everyone"" is NOT what everyone thinks that happened. You know so much about what happens at SAS, so you must be.... nooooe, not with what you said on the other thread. A rejected SC maybe?... noooee. What then.
To the rest of you, sorry that I hijacked the thread for a while, just letting you know that there are ways to "merge" lists, where 99% are happy. The last 1% will bitch no matter what happens!!
