Fatigued crew call pan-pan into MUC
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where it would have been "easier" to keep quiet about it
In any case a good example .
AfaIk EASA does not have any power to interfere in there. The German State is the regulator, ( establishing and veryfing airline adherence to FTL) , not EASA.
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The German State is the regulator
In reality, the opposite is the case!
Last edited by hetfield; 18th Jun 2012 at 18:25.
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This "news" is the front page headline of London's Metro newspaper today 
Pilots declare emergency because they were too tired to land plane | Metro.co.uk
Pilots declare emergency because they were too tired to land plane | Metro.co.uk
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I don't know.
I had one like that and we went for 16 hours. I was age 53 at the time. It was a L1011, perhaps having the third guy helped.
I did go off sick at the layover point however.
I had one like that and we went for 16 hours. I was age 53 at the time. It was a L1011, perhaps having the third guy helped.
I did go off sick at the layover point however.
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I imagine they may have had an overnight on the day before, like landing at 0600LT for example, then proceeding to sleep immediately, waking up at 15, walking around, then trying to get a sleep before being driven to MUC. Body cycles pretty much stressed at that point. Then again it's just pure speculation, don't know how AB's Crew Planning is handling this type of things. Those actually happen a lot I suppose, they just usually stay in company VR's...
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Can't believe this flight is that bad.
BTW Mallorca - Munich in 3hrs 30? You can do that in turboprop but in a A330 it's more like 2hrs 30 (block that is, flight hours will be probably around 2).
I don't think we have the complete picture here; especially the previous duty and cumulative hours will be interesting.
BTW Mallorca - Munich in 3hrs 30? You can do that in turboprop but in a A330 it's more like 2hrs 30 (block that is, flight hours will be probably around 2).
I don't think we have the complete picture here; especially the previous duty and cumulative hours will be interesting.
Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 19th Jun 2012 at 17:15.
Let's face it, just about every pilot coming off the Pond in the early morning of every day into Heathrow or Gatwick is knackered (I speak from long experience). You only have to listen to their voices on the radio.
Are we about to get into a situation whereby pilots are about to start calling Pan in order to get out of the Lambourne hold out of sequence?
If so, how are they ever going to be able to prove that they were more knackered than the others ahead of them?
I doubt that this idea is going to catch on but it would be very interesting if it did.
Are we about to get into a situation whereby pilots are about to start calling Pan in order to get out of the Lambourne hold out of sequence?
If so, how are they ever going to be able to prove that they were more knackered than the others ahead of them?
I doubt that this idea is going to catch on but it would be very interesting if it did.
A fair bit of ill feeling towards the concept of fatigued pilots identifying it and declaring it as an issue. Full props to them. As a person on the other end of the mic, I have had a few occasions of pitiful readbacks that when restated have been accompanied by various versions of 'Sorry,long night'. A great tool to identify where a little fat or slack needs to be cut.
After 20 years of night work, I still get the odd one where I just have not prepared properly due to a multitude of factors. The difference is that when I **** up, I don't end up in a smoking hole.
to the crew
After 20 years of night work, I still get the odd one where I just have not prepared properly due to a multitude of factors. The difference is that when I **** up, I don't end up in a smoking hole.
to the crew
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Good comment Plazbot.
As one who loses a night's sleep each week (transatlantic), I know just how exhausted one feels around 06-08 when landing. To be truthful, it feels like being pissed, and I certainly slur sometimes on the R/T. And yes, readbacks are tricky. This happens after weeks of no booze at all, just a fatiguing job. And it is the same for the younger pilots, some of who seem to need more sleep!
As one who loses a night's sleep each week (transatlantic), I know just how exhausted one feels around 06-08 when landing. To be truthful, it feels like being pissed, and I certainly slur sometimes on the R/T. And yes, readbacks are tricky. This happens after weeks of no booze at all, just a fatiguing job. And it is the same for the younger pilots, some of who seem to need more sleep!
I think the distinction needs to be made between short term tiredness and long term fatigue.
If you are doing a night duty (or not acclimatised to local time) you might expect to be "tired" at certain times.
Longer term fatigue though is more "battle damage" brought on by successive changes from day to night flights coupled with long duty days.
There have been occasions over the last 40 years of my flying where I have been unable to get any meaningful sleep prior to (for example) an early start. I remember one when I said to the First Officer (as we checked in for a 11 hour duty 4 sector early at 0500) "I hardly got any sleep last night" to which he replied "I've been called from standby and only got 2 hours sleep myself!" So what to do? We completed the duty but I would not like to profess that we were in the best state to do so! Legally we should have called in not fit to fly but this seems to be unofficially frowned upon under the veneer of "we care about safety".
Also I would like to comment on another aspect. Will the new pilots who are entering the profession now be "burned out" by the time they get into their thirties? This constant abuse of the body clock and long duty cycles over many years must eventually exact a toll.
If you are doing a night duty (or not acclimatised to local time) you might expect to be "tired" at certain times.
Longer term fatigue though is more "battle damage" brought on by successive changes from day to night flights coupled with long duty days.
There have been occasions over the last 40 years of my flying where I have been unable to get any meaningful sleep prior to (for example) an early start. I remember one when I said to the First Officer (as we checked in for a 11 hour duty 4 sector early at 0500) "I hardly got any sleep last night" to which he replied "I've been called from standby and only got 2 hours sleep myself!" So what to do? We completed the duty but I would not like to profess that we were in the best state to do so! Legally we should have called in not fit to fly but this seems to be unofficially frowned upon under the veneer of "we care about safety".
Also I would like to comment on another aspect. Will the new pilots who are entering the profession now be "burned out" by the time they get into their thirties? This constant abuse of the body clock and long duty cycles over many years must eventually exact a toll.
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Does anyone else suffer from fatigue delayed by 48 hours ?
When at work I'd occasionally have to put in one full day's work 0800-1700 in the office, then 7 hours off-duty but couldn't sleep as it was evening, followed by one night's work 0000-0600 in the control room, then 4 hours off-duty followed by one day's work 1000-1700 in the office.
The next day I'd be fine but the day after that was a zombie.
When at work I'd occasionally have to put in one full day's work 0800-1700 in the office, then 7 hours off-duty but couldn't sleep as it was evening, followed by one night's work 0000-0600 in the control room, then 4 hours off-duty followed by one day's work 1000-1700 in the office.
The next day I'd be fine but the day after that was a zombie.
Last edited by OFSO; 22nd Jun 2012 at 19:32.
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It's all political and nobody can tell me it ain't.
And it is no coincidence either that Ryanair representatives are heavily lobbying at EASA's HQ in Cologne and trying to fight any (in their opinion) unfavourable development of FDT regulation...
It's all about money and the cost of those 'glorified taxi drivers'.
And it is no coincidence either that Ryanair representatives are heavily lobbying at EASA's HQ in Cologne and trying to fight any (in their opinion) unfavourable development of FDT regulation...
It's all about money and the cost of those 'glorified taxi drivers'.
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Well, Air Berlin isn't just one company.
It is put togehter by several aquired companies of which one is the former LTU. LTU used to be run rather friendly towards its employees and it is still the old LTU crews flying the A330s.
Now Air Berlin is not known to be overly caring of its staff, at least such are the rumors.
Additionally, Air Berlin has hardly ever turned a profit and is now being funded by a company from Abu Dhabi whose name must not be mentioned here. You can check the middle eastern forum to see.
So in my very personal opinion that can in no way be proven, maybe, just maybe, this is a signal by an old LTU crew towards the management.
Maybe...
It is put togehter by several aquired companies of which one is the former LTU. LTU used to be run rather friendly towards its employees and it is still the old LTU crews flying the A330s.
Now Air Berlin is not known to be overly caring of its staff, at least such are the rumors.
Additionally, Air Berlin has hardly ever turned a profit and is now being funded by a company from Abu Dhabi whose name must not be mentioned here. You can check the middle eastern forum to see.
So in my very personal opinion that can in no way be proven, maybe, just maybe, this is a signal by an old LTU crew towards the management.
Maybe...