plane crash in Lagos Nigeria
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Well here is a guess for you chaps....The Captain was flying and "between them" they managed to shut off the fuel to the wrong engine... and did not notice or if they did they were unable to recover the situation at their altitude in the time available.
Be interesting to see from the CVR who was talking from the aircraft to ATC and if he was also managing the situation and also flying it at the same time manually....interesting to see also exactly how good the challenge response to an emergency shut down drill was being performed and what is the SOP response to an abnormal drill and check list policy with this airline...
i.e. who fly's the plane and who manages the situation and who does the drill and how he is monitored...if at all!
Clear and precise and disciplined CRM responses by a two man crew with an American Captain who is newly flying with an Indian and also possibly an Indonesian in the cockpit... all of whom may not have Queens English as their first priority in an emergency situation would probably not have helped.
All flying licences and submitted experience hopefully will be checked and found correct.
One can only hope this will be properly investigated and some good will come out of this sad loss of life...
Be interesting to see from the CVR who was talking from the aircraft to ATC and if he was also managing the situation and also flying it at the same time manually....interesting to see also exactly how good the challenge response to an emergency shut down drill was being performed and what is the SOP response to an abnormal drill and check list policy with this airline...
i.e. who fly's the plane and who manages the situation and who does the drill and how he is monitored...if at all!
Clear and precise and disciplined CRM responses by a two man crew with an American Captain who is newly flying with an Indian and also possibly an Indonesian in the cockpit... all of whom may not have Queens English as their first priority in an emergency situation would probably not have helped.
All flying licences and submitted experience hopefully will be checked and found correct.
One can only hope this will be properly investigated and some good will come out of this sad loss of life...
Last edited by 40&80; 6th Jun 2012 at 21:15.
40&80:
From your post I digest the following:
Hypothesis is that touble with one engine leads to a set of actions in the cockpit that ends up with the "good engine" being inadvertently secured rather than the bad one. As I have seen a similar thing happen IRL, early 90's mishap in the Navy, and watched more than one crew make that error in sims that I ran back in the day, it will be interesting to see if the facts as found align with your estimate.
There is also a chance of various fuel flow malfunctions arriving at once, but I'd need to take a look at the MD 80 fuel system schematic to try and figure out how flow goes awry ... presuming that there is usable fuel to move about in the first place.
Hope the FDR info becomes available in due course.
From your post I digest the following:
Hypothesis is that touble with one engine leads to a set of actions in the cockpit that ends up with the "good engine" being inadvertently secured rather than the bad one. As I have seen a similar thing happen IRL, early 90's mishap in the Navy, and watched more than one crew make that error in sims that I ran back in the day, it will be interesting to see if the facts as found align with your estimate.
There is also a chance of various fuel flow malfunctions arriving at once, but I'd need to take a look at the MD 80 fuel system schematic to try and figure out how flow goes awry ... presuming that there is usable fuel to move about in the first place.
Hope the FDR info becomes available in due course.
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The American Captain was a well respected captain that flew with both Falcon Air Express and Spirit Airlines in south Florida. Both airlines have their employees wearing black ribbons on their wings.
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"Later Jun 5th the airline added the captain had a total flying experience of 18,500 hours, thereof 7,100 hours on the MD-83, the first officer had a flying experience of 1,110 hours total and 800 hours on type. The aircraft had accumulated more than 35,000 cycles and 60,000 flight hours, its last A-check was completed on May 30th 2012 with the next C-check required until September 2012, the aircraft was in possession of a valid certificate of airworthiness following the previous C-check."
Mistrust in Management
Well here is a guess for you chaps....The Captain was flying and "between them" they managed to shut off the fuel to the wrong engine... and did not notice or if they did they were unable to recover the situation at their altitude in the time available.
How about: here is a guess for you chaps....The First officer was flying and they had a birdstike in both engines.
How about: here is a guess for you chaps....The Captain was flying and and the guages were in pounds not kilos.
How about: here is a guess for you chaps....The First officer was flying and the fuel was mismanaged.
How about: here is a guess for you chaps....The Captain was flying and maintenance had been carried out at some time prior to the flight that was identical to both engines.
How about: here is a guess for you chaps....We wait for the outcome of the investigation.
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Quoting a quote from Los' post
The aircraft, manufactured by McDonnell-Douglas which was later bought by Boeing, requires a flight engineer to manage the fuel supply while in operation rather than having a computer monitoring it like on newer aircraft.
The DC9 - MD80 is certified as a two pilot crew, not three. If memory serves me correctly the DC9 was the first U.S. transport category jet designed and certified for a 2 pilot crew.
The accident aircraft had a dual channel fuel quantity indicating system that fed real time fuel quantity indications to the instrument display in the cockpit. The zero fuel weight may be preloaded in the instrument as well so the instrument displays real time aircraft weight. I have no knowledge of whether the fuel quantity indicating guage and related system was functional on the accident flight. But to imply that a third crew person is necessary to monitor fuel quantity on the MD80 flight deck is nonsense.
Last edited by Northbeach; 6th Jun 2012 at 23:28.
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ok...if the fuel was contaminated....it is MORE Likelythat a problem would have happened on takeoff, not landing...takeoff is using alot of fuel...approach, not so much.
so I don't think it was contaminated fuel
AS to shutting down the wrong engine's fuel lever...well, its possible, but I will tell you this...if one engine quit on short final, I would just land and not do the checklist for engine out...I mean, its not like you have to feather a prop on a jet!!!!!!!! IF it were a fire, that would be different of course.
The fuel system is really quite elegant and does NOT need a flight engineer. There is one failure mode which can be almost disasterous, but it would require rotten mx.
Two engines out at the same time....very unlikely....and yes the DC9 was the first jet transport certified without a flight engineer...at least in the USA.
IF this guy had 8000 plus hours in type, I really don't think it will come down as pilot error. The whole DC9 series is so elegantly simple (KISS) and so reliable...provided MX is good. And anything you do, like select crossfeed to balance tanks, an experienced pilot knows that you have to watch it and you put something like a checklist between the throttles to remind you to close the valve...provided the cable is well maintained between handle and valve.
so I don't think it was contaminated fuel
AS to shutting down the wrong engine's fuel lever...well, its possible, but I will tell you this...if one engine quit on short final, I would just land and not do the checklist for engine out...I mean, its not like you have to feather a prop on a jet!!!!!!!! IF it were a fire, that would be different of course.
The fuel system is really quite elegant and does NOT need a flight engineer. There is one failure mode which can be almost disasterous, but it would require rotten mx.
Two engines out at the same time....very unlikely....and yes the DC9 was the first jet transport certified without a flight engineer...at least in the USA.
IF this guy had 8000 plus hours in type, I really don't think it will come down as pilot error. The whole DC9 series is so elegantly simple (KISS) and so reliable...provided MX is good. And anything you do, like select crossfeed to balance tanks, an experienced pilot knows that you have to watch it and you put something like a checklist between the throttles to remind you to close the valve...provided the cable is well maintained between handle and valve.
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A double engine failure is extremely unlikely without some external cause such as the dreaded flock of geese. The geometry of the rear mounted engines close to the fuselage makes this less likely than with conventional underwing engines but it could have happened.
A lack of fuel to the engines seems to be a more credible theory, the normal nose-high attitude during approach would cause fuel to move to the rear of the tanks exposing the pickup points if the levels were already marginal.
If we assume (probably wrongly) that there was indeed a fuel shortage the question simplifies - did they depart with the correct fuel load and if so this implies a loss due to excessive consumption or leakage.
Could the explanation be as simple as skimping on reserves to stay within MTOW under the prevailing hot & high conditions with a full load ? Hopefully no operator would allow this.
A lack of fuel to the engines seems to be a more credible theory, the normal nose-high attitude during approach would cause fuel to move to the rear of the tanks exposing the pickup points if the levels were already marginal.
If we assume (probably wrongly) that there was indeed a fuel shortage the question simplifies - did they depart with the correct fuel load and if so this implies a loss due to excessive consumption or leakage.
Could the explanation be as simple as skimping on reserves to stay within MTOW under the prevailing hot & high conditions with a full load ? Hopefully no operator would allow this.
Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 7th Jun 2012 at 01:29.
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the idea of uncovering a fuel port due to low fuel is examined in the aircraft manual. while I didn't fly the MD80, I did fly the earlier, shorter DC9...simply put if the fuel is less than 500 lbs in each wing tank a go around must NOT be attempted due to unporting of the fuel intakes.
even attempting an approach with less than 1000lbs in each wing tank is to be addressed as something to be dealt with in the QRH. And a go around with this amount of fuel is to be done with a shallow pitch up and not the normal pitch attitude.
having said this...even with 45 minutes of fuel, the total fuel on board would be closer to 5000plus pounds total (2500lbs per wing)and you wouldn't be close to a problem.
In this type of plane, you use the center tanks first (except for takeoff)
even attempting an approach with less than 1000lbs in each wing tank is to be addressed as something to be dealt with in the QRH. And a go around with this amount of fuel is to be done with a shallow pitch up and not the normal pitch attitude.
having said this...even with 45 minutes of fuel, the total fuel on board would be closer to 5000plus pounds total (2500lbs per wing)and you wouldn't be close to a problem.
In this type of plane, you use the center tanks first (except for takeoff)
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Bad reporting, or misunderstanding of what the reporter was told. From my memory of ground engineering on DC9s and MD80s (nearly 30 years ago), the engineeer on the ground had to manually set the fuel valves for each tank. So if the captain wanted 10 tons bulk, I had to manually set 4250 for each wing with the other 1.5 tonnes in the centre. I think the MD80s had 4350 in each wing.
On later types like the Airbus, we just set the bulk fuel, and the system sorted out where to put the fuel.
This may have been what the reporter was supposed to have printed. The DC9 flight deck is pretty cosy for 2 let alone 3.
Bad reporting, or misunderstanding of what the reporter was told. From my memory of ground engineering on DC9s and MD80s (nearly 30 years ago), the engineeer on the ground had to manually set the fuel valves for each tank. So if the captain wanted 10 tons bulk, I had to manually set 4250 for each wing with the other 1.5 tonnes in the centre. I think the MD80s had 4350 in each wing.
On later types like the Airbus, we just set the bulk fuel, and the system sorted out where to put the fuel.
This may have been what the reporter was supposed to have printed. The DC9 flight deck is pretty cosy for 2 let alone 3.
Heard today from contact in Nigeria that airport closed for 2 hours because of transit of President's wife. Plane held for some time. Anyone else heard this and if true could commercial/diplomatic pressures have resulted in running out of fuel? How else can you reasonably explain a double engine failure like this. Hardly a 777 after a 10 hour flight across Russia!
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Update from Reuters
UPDATE 2-Nigeria plane reported engine failure | Reuters
States that recorders have been sent abroad for decoding and that the pilot reported dual engine failure.
States that recorders have been sent abroad for decoding and that the pilot reported dual engine failure.
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ciderman
That's total bullocks. Read the article on that and its not true. The first lady wasn't even flying the day of the crash so there's no way the airspace could have been closed and even if there's a VIP in the area, I believe an emergency call is given priority over the VIP.
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Heard today from contact in Nigeria that airport closed for 2 hours because of transit of President's wife. Plane held for some time. Anyone else heard this and if true could commercial/diplomatic pressures have resulted in running out of fuel?
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I worked in Nigeria a couple of times for different oil companies. I used to fly regularly from Lagos to Port Harcourt at least once and maybe twice a week. There are definitely some carriers who fly better equipment than others. There were some real rust buckets flying out of Lagos.
I had several very poor landings at PH and Lagos especially when I flew Virgin Nigeria. Not all the poor landings were due to weather conditions.
We as a company after many complaints switched to Aero Contractors because of our concerns, more expensive but inherantly safer and a lot more professional.
I had several very poor landings at PH and Lagos especially when I flew Virgin Nigeria. Not all the poor landings were due to weather conditions.
We as a company after many complaints switched to Aero Contractors because of our concerns, more expensive but inherantly safer and a lot more professional.
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The only time the airport is closed for VIP movement is during the Arrival/Departure of the President and Vice-president and no other person. so the first Lady travelling is not even close to a logical theory. Any pilot who decides after losing an engine to hold and wait for the airport to open should not be flying in the first place. Emergencies take precedence over any other aircraft movement...