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Old 20th Dec 2012, 12:11   #161 (permalink)
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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If the crew took off in MANUAL, they will have noticed immediately
- I'm afraid I disagree. Remember 'going up' has far less effect on the ears than coming down'. I suggest 'may'? I had to depart INN once unpressurised until around 6000' due to a tech issue and I do not recall noticing anything 'unusual' on the ears. No comments from c/crew or pax either.

I cannot remember the detail of the Helios but I'm sure the 'implication' is that the crew did NOT notice the lack of pressurisation even when the horn went off.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 14:58   #162 (permalink)
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This case stinks. The Greek investigators obviously messed up with the report and their efforts to cover it led to some aviation professionals to be prosecuted for one and the same thing three times.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 04:40   #163 (permalink)
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Cyprus Mail link

Hi everyb!
I would like to post the link to the letter by the wife of Mr. Stoimenov again:

Why is new evidence in the Helios crash being ignored? - Cyprus Mail

Please make your position known by commenting on the article.
Let the press in Cyprus know how we all feel about this farce!
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Old 7th Jan 2013, 07:59   #164 (permalink)
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Athens Court

Maybe the time has come to stop flying or working on aircraft that are to enter Greek airspace. 123 years in a Greek jail can't be a whole lot of fun.

And if you are not getting support from your management just remind them that the Accountable Manager will also be sharing your cell!
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Old 22nd Jan 2013, 17:35   #165 (permalink)
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Legal Defense Costs

Whilst we should all be reminding our Accountable Managers they would join us in a Greek Jail ask him or her if your Company Insurers would cover the cost of a decent Defense team ie a cool few million euros, my advice here is don't listen to answers like ''Of course we wouldn't leave in the lurch'' or ''my goodness me of course every help would be offered to you'' It would be nice to see proof of help direct from the Insurers but don't hold your breath whilst waiting.

Last edited by marvo999; 22nd Jan 2013 at 17:37.
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Old 23rd Jan 2013, 08:28   #166 (permalink)
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Act Now Accountable Managers

Well said Marvo, I suspect that even Insurers run out of money in cases that go on as long as this one.

At least you will have 123 years together in which you can say "I told you so" to any accountable manager who accuses you of scaremongering and doesn't act.
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Old 23rd Jan 2013, 08:38   #167 (permalink)
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Greece is still an EU member. Greece is apparently being financed by EU taxpayers. Can this not be brought before an EU court??
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Old 24th Jan 2013, 11:07   #168 (permalink)
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Legal Defense Costs - why you will never get the comfort you need

I have followed this case for a few years. It is not the first, or last, aviation crash where criminal charges will be brought against aviation professionals. AF447 grinds on in front of Mdme Zimmerman as we speak. BUT, you won't get any aviation insurer or airline to give you the comfort you deserve.

The aviation insurers of any airline have zero obligation to pay any criminal legal defence fees, under any circumstances. The aviation insurers are there to bail out the airline for compensation claims by the families of the dead and injured, and that includes expensive aviation lawyers to defend the airline for those civil claims.

Aviation Insurers only ever start to fork out for criminal lawyers, if they think it is expedient to their financial interests in the civil compensation claims. Put another way, if criminal charges/convictions somehow make the civil claims more expensive, this is bad for the aviation insurers as their bill goes up. Then there is a clear financial interest on the insurers behalf in paying less: so it then only makes sense to spend money on criminal lawyers, as well as civil lawyers, in an attempt to reduce the total bill.

So, money seems to trump human rights or air safety in certain situations.

All rather unsettling, and unsatisfactory.
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 16:59   #169 (permalink)
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Decision Day

Tomorrow, Thursday 7 February 2013, is the day the Greek Court's verdict will be announced.

The sad thing is that there is nothing anyone can do about it.
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 17:56   #170 (permalink)
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Greek Justice

Greek justice has always been rather different to our understanding.

An aquaintance of mine bought a holiday froman established operator to go plane spotting in Greece. While parked in a viewing spot near an airfield spotting except for one of the wives who was not interested and sat in the bus doing puzzles. The cops turned up and arrest them all for spying. They must not take photographs or note plane numbers.

At the court case they point out that the airfield features in an evening soap opera about the Greek air force at which many photographs and aircraft numbers may be seen... not relevant says the court. They describe the process of aircraft spotting... all lies says the prosecutor there is no such hobby as plane spotting. They produce plane spotting magazine printed in Greece and bought at airport that morning.. All fabricated says prosecutor... they say lets go airport buy more magazines... court adjourns Garry given bail of 10K which he borrows....

Garry told not to attend net court hearing but can't afford to lose the money so turns up... found not guilty..... eight years later still can't get the bail money back is told has been forfeit

If you go the Greece you must obey the rules and laws of that sovereign country, they may not be what you expect.. Greece is fully entitled to make it's own laws but we may be ignorant of them and should not expect allowance for our ignorance

Last edited by Tinribs; 6th Feb 2013 at 17:59.
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 18:33   #171 (permalink)
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I have no problems obeying the "law of the land".
I do have a problem with people who are supposed to make evidence based judgements refusing to even accept that evidence and make a judgement anyway regardless.
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Old 7th Feb 2013, 18:20   #172 (permalink)
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Court today announced its verdict. Alan is found NOT GUILTY.
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Old 7th Feb 2013, 18:22   #173 (permalink)
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That's wonderful!
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Old 7th Feb 2013, 19:54   #174 (permalink)
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Finally! After so many years of worry. Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes as they say. So pleased for Alan but deeply concerned about the possible ramifications of operating in Greek airspace.
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Old 7th Feb 2013, 21:37   #175 (permalink)
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Wonderful news. I sincerely hope he can try to put this behind him. (as much as is possible)

It would appear justice does prevail after all, even in Greece. It just takes a long long long time.
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Old 7th Feb 2013, 21:51   #176 (permalink)
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Here's hoping he can rebuild his life after this dreadful period.
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Old 8th Feb 2013, 07:43   #177 (permalink)
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Helios convictions upheld in Greece - Cyprus Mail
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Old 8th Feb 2013, 10:36   #178 (permalink)
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Common sense finally prevails as far as the engineer is concerned! For chief pilots and executives however the message is clear, the buck for corporate responsibility stops with you. We are quick to criticize them. But as this case shows their positions are not without risk.
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Old 8th Feb 2013, 13:34   #179 (permalink)
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Athens decision

It is great news that Alan was found Not Guilty, but then he wasn't guilty anyway was he.

It was very heartening for him to have been given the overwhelming support of his fellow licensed engineers both in this forum and elsewhere. Even pilots joined in to wish him well!

The CEO, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot are found Guilty but also did nothing wrong. The big difference is that they got little or no support from fellow management types who kept their corporate heads below the parapet.

But would we expect anything else
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Old 8th Feb 2013, 14:31   #180 (permalink)
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History would seem to indicate that the Greek Legal system is about as competent as the Greek Economic system...
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