Bhoja Air 213 down near Islamabad
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As regards Pakistan, no expats = no experts. Their appalling fatal accident record proves it. They cannot fly planes safely on their own. But they will keep going. Anyone daft enough to roll the dice must accept the odds. Ditto with Korean, African " carriers", and a host of Russian and Eastern European airlines. Not forgetting Mexico and many airlines south of the Mexican border. Including Cubana. Oh and a few legacy Far Eastern airlines too. As for Indonesia......Yep, flying is not a safe business folks.
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can you provide accident rates in pakistan vs any western country which would justify you statement?
last time i check the number of fatal crashes of pakistani registered civilian aircrafts stood between 20 and 25. even if it were 25, 25 crashes in 65 years isnt bad.
how on earth have we not managed to crash all our airplanes since we been operating airlines for 65 years? its a freking miracle we have managed to survive without expats.
expats do bring in experience, but that can be catered for by hiring pilots who have operated with foreign carriers.
last time i check the number of fatal crashes of pakistani registered civilian aircrafts stood between 20 and 25. even if it were 25, 25 crashes in 65 years isnt bad.
how on earth have we not managed to crash all our airplanes since we been operating airlines for 65 years? its a freking miracle we have managed to survive without expats.
expats do bring in experience, but that can be catered for by hiring pilots who have operated with foreign carriers.
Statistics/probability.
When was the last time an airliner has been knocked right out of the sky by a gust ???
How many airliners have crashed since that last time for more conventional causes ?
Dozens if not hundreds.
(If we look for an aircraft blown out of the sky from similar altitude (DAL 191 was from 800 ft) we would have to go very far in history, if we would ever find one)
Occam's Razor applies.
Also here probably.
My hope is for NTSB to find out and communicate what really happened.
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Machinbird:
As I recall the report wasn't released because the aviation authoritives have suddenly seen the light. I believe the families of the passengers retained very good legal counsel who convinced a high-level Pakistani judge to order the release of the report.
Things are changing. For example you can download the Air Blue accident report here: http://www.caapakistan.com.pk/downlo...20-ABQ-202.pdf
The only thing about that report that bothers me is that each page is marked, "Confidential".
The only thing about that report that bothers me is that each page is marked, "Confidential".
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Boeing 737-236, G-BKYI
AAIB Bulletin No: 1/98 Ref: EW/C96/11/3 Category: 1.1
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...rNAF4O8c1Y9GYA
AAIB Bulletin No: 1/98 Ref: EW/C96/11/3 Category: 1.1
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...rNAF4O8c1Y9GYA
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last time i check the number of fatal crashes of pakistani registered civilian aircrafts stood between 20 and 25. even if it were 25, 25 crashes in 65 years isnt bad.
you have two countries, one has a fleet with one aircraft that does one one hour flight per year and has a single incident every year
the other has a a fleet of 10,000, all doing 1,000 hours per year and has a single indicent every year...
which would you rather fly on ?
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AirDisaster.Com: Statistics
Has data by region and by airframe.
Specific airlines in the region are 10-20x the rate of N. Europe/N. America operators.
Has data by region and by airframe.
Specific airlines in the region are 10-20x the rate of N. Europe/N. America operators.
"My hope is for NTSB to find out and communicate what really happened."
henra:
NTSB (from the US?) presumably due to Boeing aircraft in the mishap?
henra:
NTSB (from the US?) presumably due to Boeing aircraft in the mishap?
Still it will probably be the best (and most objective) we will ever get to read regarding this accident.
And there are some slightly strange aspects to it (long wreckage path if reported correctly, visibility at the time is not yet really clear to me, but I haven't read anything about thick fog / zero visibility, etc.), so it potentially could be of slightly more interest than other cases where the surrounding conditions already pointed 95% towards the real cause , e.g.. spatial disorientation in zero visibility conditions at night over the sea flying manually after takeoff....
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Bhoja aircraft banned for general flights
According to a private television channel, Airworthiness Instructor CAA cancelled the Airworthiness Certificate for 2 flights of Bhoja Airlines bound for Islamabad via Lahore from Karachi.
“ During inspection”, Instructor said, “ Planes were found unfit for general flights both domestic and international. They are grounded until clearance and obtainment of Airworthiness Certificate”.
Bhoja aircraft banned for general flights
“ During inspection”, Instructor said, “ Planes were found unfit for general flights both domestic and international. They are grounded until clearance and obtainment of Airworthiness Certificate”.
Bhoja aircraft banned for general flights
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Roaldp
the report is a bunch of media crap. Bhoja only has 2 airplane and 2 more in the process of being purchased. 1 hull lost, 1 remains. operations suspended due to the accident, not due to safety violations.
the report is a bunch of media crap. Bhoja only has 2 airplane and 2 more in the process of being purchased. 1 hull lost, 1 remains. operations suspended due to the accident, not due to safety violations.
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Confirmed in Avation Herald today
"On Apr 24th 2012 the CAA announced that the airworthiness certificates of two aircraft of Bhoja Air were suspended over concerns on a number of constituent parts including landing gear and gear doors, the aircraft were found unfit for general flight. The aircraft remain grounded until found airworthy again."
Crash: Bhoja B732 at Islamabad on Apr 20th 2012, impacted terrain on approach
The Economist:
"A rush to judgment, irresponsible comments from the government and three separate investigations are not going to do much to restore flyers' confidence in the Pakistani government's ability to safely regulate its airlines. Pakistan's state-owned flag carrier, Pakistan International Airlines, was barred from all EU airports for eight months in 2007, so it's clear that international air-travel regulators haven't had the highest opinion of Pakistan's aviation sector in the past. So far, the chaos following this incident—the second major crash near Islamabad in as many years—is only making the Pakistani government and its Civil Aviation Authority look worse."
The plane crash in Pakistan: After the tragedy, a rush to judgment | The Economist
Clive Irving:
"... travelers can be playing a form of Russian roulette if they book flights on obscure airlines in countries beyond the oversight of either American or European regulators."
Pakistan Airplane Crash: Why Bhoja Air Flight Was Risky - The Daily Beast
Crash: Bhoja B732 at Islamabad on Apr 20th 2012, impacted terrain on approach
The Economist:
"A rush to judgment, irresponsible comments from the government and three separate investigations are not going to do much to restore flyers' confidence in the Pakistani government's ability to safely regulate its airlines. Pakistan's state-owned flag carrier, Pakistan International Airlines, was barred from all EU airports for eight months in 2007, so it's clear that international air-travel regulators haven't had the highest opinion of Pakistan's aviation sector in the past. So far, the chaos following this incident—the second major crash near Islamabad in as many years—is only making the Pakistani government and its Civil Aviation Authority look worse."
The plane crash in Pakistan: After the tragedy, a rush to judgment | The Economist
Clive Irving:
"... travelers can be playing a form of Russian roulette if they book flights on obscure airlines in countries beyond the oversight of either American or European regulators."
Pakistan Airplane Crash: Why Bhoja Air Flight Was Risky - The Daily Beast
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From Pakistan Today, 26 april 2012
"LAHORE/KARACHI - Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar ordered the grounding of all private airlines until they obtained requisite technical clearance certificates, just as two planes of Shaheen Air International narrowly escaped accidents at Lahore and Karachi airports on Sunday.
Talking to reporters, the defence minister ordered for inspection of planes of all private airlines to ensure safety of passengers.
He said all private airlines had been given a shakedown message to ground their planes for thorough checking by the Civil Aviation Authority from tomorrow.
Mukhtar said if proved that the recently crashed Bhoja airline plane was not fit for flight‚ the license of the airline would be cancelled."
Talking to reporters, the defence minister ordered for inspection of planes of all private airlines to ensure safety of passengers.
He said all private airlines had been given a shakedown message to ground their planes for thorough checking by the Civil Aviation Authority from tomorrow.
Mukhtar said if proved that the recently crashed Bhoja airline plane was not fit for flight‚ the license of the airline would be cancelled."
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Mukhtar said if proved that the recently crashed Bhoja airline plane was not fit for flight‚ the license of the airline would be cancelled."
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Chain of command?
So in Pakistan the Defense Minister runs the Civil Aviation Authority and grounds all the private airlines but lets the state-owned airline continue flying? Is this really how things are supposed to work in Pakistan or is this just another subtext in the ongoing Army vs. the Civilian government power struggle?
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So in Pakistan the Defense Minister runs the Civil Aviation Authority and grounds all the private airlines but lets the state-owned airline continue flying? Is this really how things are supposed to work in Pakistan or is this just another subtext in the ongoing Army vs. the Civilian government power struggle?