Take off with snow on wing
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Aerobat77, in your post number 243, was it necessary to be quite so offensive? Surely you are mature enough to think twice before pressing the send button? The post is more like a rant than a mature response: if you wish to correct a previous posters' misunderstanding, or to clarify your points, good manners are more effective, and will give the readers a better impression of you.
It is not too late for you to edit your post....
It is not too late for you to edit your post....
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Snow on wings.
Just read the German accident report of the Manchester United crash at Munich. They failed to take off because of snow on the WINGS, nothing to do with slush building up in front of the WHEELS, other aircraft were taking off on the same surface, but with WINGS de-iced. If you have a problem reading your fuselage registration, have a discussion about wing de-icing, and live to tell the tale. Chug-a-lug.
According some sources it was Aeroflot VP-BKY some months ago between Moscow and St.Petersbourg.
IMHO unless AFL does a press release, their Skyteam alliance could be in dangerous fields after all of this...just my 2 cents
IMHO unless AFL does a press release, their Skyteam alliance could be in dangerous fields after all of this...just my 2 cents
DOVE
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And so, as more as higher were their weight and height, they unknowingly approacched the coffin corner, risking, among other things, to loose several thousand feet, going through the high-speed stall to low speed stall and vice versa
From Wikipedia:
As an airplane approaches its coffin corner, the margin between stall speed and critical Mach number becomes smaller and smaller. Small changes could put one wingor the other above or below the limits. For instance, a turn causes the inner wing to have a lower airspeed, and the outer wing, a higher airspeed. The aircraft could exceed both limits at once. Or, turbulence, could cause the airspeed to change suddenly, to beyond the limits.
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I am cabin crew for a British flag carrier which operates to Moscow.
Years ago I called the flight crew because I was concerned that we hadn't been de-iced and there was a large volume of snow on the wings of our 767. I was told that it had been discussed between them, the wings had been inspected by the ground engineer and it had been decided that due to the intense cold (minus 20) the snow hadn't adhered to the wings and that they were completely clean underneath.
We started the takeoff roll and as predicted, the snow shot off the wings and left them clean at about 50 knots.
Quite possibly the exact same circumstances at in the original video.
Years ago I called the flight crew because I was concerned that we hadn't been de-iced and there was a large volume of snow on the wings of our 767. I was told that it had been discussed between them, the wings had been inspected by the ground engineer and it had been decided that due to the intense cold (minus 20) the snow hadn't adhered to the wings and that they were completely clean underneath.
We started the takeoff roll and as predicted, the snow shot off the wings and left them clean at about 50 knots.
Quite possibly the exact same circumstances at in the original video.
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@ aerobatt77
You keep posting so much BS and try to be smart. Cptplaystation has been here posting valid comments for a while. Your participation in the contrary consists of BS written in poor english, almost beyond understanding. Is that supposed to be level 4 english?
You keep talking this utter toss about taking off with snow is ok, as long as it is blown away before rotation. According to you this will have no affect on safety. Dude, this is absolute Bull$hit!
It is clearly a NO-GO to operate an A/C with any contamination on the wing. There is no discussion about that. But because you are such a smarta$$ try to figure out this.
Assume we have a balanced T/O calculation with stopmargin 0. Lets pretend that because we have snow on the wing there is also some snow on the rwy too. Let it be 1mm dry snow, or 1mm wet snow or even just 3mm standing water.
How do you think the increased drag until Vr + the increased weight ( assuming that the snow is blown off just before Vr) does affect your :
1. screenheight for TO with all engines on?
2. screenheight for TO with one engine inop?
Your screenheight on contaminated RWY with one engine inop it will be only 15ft! Thats less 5 meters! Lets assume you do know that you have snow on your wing, its all blown off as you thought, but you lose and engine. Because the snow on the wing smart guys delay the rotation a bit.
Even if your performance was not even affected by the snow you just will have a lot less than 15ft screenheight left
A lot less of almost nothing is 0
Here is some lecture for you, its from smartcockpit. But smarta$$es can read it too. http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...ERY_RUNWAY.pdf
Winter operations is a wide field and needs a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge. Winter operations require us to act even a little more safetyminded, operate a little more on the safe side and not to cut corners when it comes to safetymargins. Winter operation will reduces the safetymargins in all areas of our operations allready, so we have to take them back not give them away! For just an example stopmargins are suddenly only 15% and the reversers are allready calculated into the stopping distance.
A solid knowledge of the rules and regulations and a strict adherence to them is the key element to avoid accidents. Trying to be an smarta$$ and cut corners will lead to an accident. If not while you operate the flight, maybe it will be another pilot who took the lesson from you and thought it was cool. People who think and talk like you, plant the seeds of accidents and we all will harvest the crop. Think about that, shut up, listen to your more experienced colleagues and improve your knowledge.
You keep talking this utter toss about taking off with snow is ok, as long as it is blown away before rotation. According to you this will have no affect on safety. Dude, this is absolute Bull$hit!
It is clearly a NO-GO to operate an A/C with any contamination on the wing. There is no discussion about that. But because you are such a smarta$$ try to figure out this.
Assume we have a balanced T/O calculation with stopmargin 0. Lets pretend that because we have snow on the wing there is also some snow on the rwy too. Let it be 1mm dry snow, or 1mm wet snow or even just 3mm standing water.
How do you think the increased drag until Vr + the increased weight ( assuming that the snow is blown off just before Vr) does affect your :
1. screenheight for TO with all engines on?
2. screenheight for TO with one engine inop?
Your screenheight on contaminated RWY with one engine inop it will be only 15ft! Thats less 5 meters! Lets assume you do know that you have snow on your wing, its all blown off as you thought, but you lose and engine. Because the snow on the wing smart guys delay the rotation a bit.
Even if your performance was not even affected by the snow you just will have a lot less than 15ft screenheight left A lot less of almost nothing is 0Here is some lecture for you, its from smartcockpit. But smarta$$es can read it too. http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...ERY_RUNWAY.pdf
Winter operations is a wide field and needs a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge. Winter operations require us to act even a little more safetyminded, operate a little more on the safe side and not to cut corners when it comes to safetymargins. Winter operation will reduces the safetymargins in all areas of our operations allready, so we have to take them back not give them away! For just an example stopmargins are suddenly only 15% and the reversers are allready calculated into the stopping distance.
A solid knowledge of the rules and regulations and a strict adherence to them is the key element to avoid accidents. Trying to be an smarta$$ and cut corners will lead to an accident. If not while you operate the flight, maybe it will be another pilot who took the lesson from you and thought it was cool. People who think and talk like you, plant the seeds of accidents and we all will harvest the crop. Think about that, shut up, listen to your more experienced colleagues and improve your knowledge.
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Dear cabin colleague dns
Even if you operated on board of a british flag carrier, it was a violation of the rules and plain stupid.
Its not enoug that the wing is clean underneath the snow. It has to be clean, without snow
These guys had also inspected the wing. They even decided to deice! They had some clear ice which was undetected and the rest is history. How do you think your groundengineer detects clear ice below snow? ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-81 OY-KHO Gottrra
The wings are big and full of different materials, systems, heatsources, some parts are cold, some heat up due to the warm fuel or systems like oilcoolers, fuelheaters, hydraulic lines etc. During the approach the leading edges will be heated up to prevent ice accumulation. They are still warm for a while after touchdown. So there are an awfull lot of factors affecting the state of the wing in precipitation. How can you be sure the whole wing is the same as the tiny part in front of your ladders. Nobody walks in the winter on the wing, because they are afraid its slippery and they might fall down because of ICE!
Britis flag carriers have to stick to the rules too.
You were just lucky. Next time talk to your cockpit if you see snow on the wing. Ask how much delay the de-icing will cause. If they say "zero, cause we dont have to" Raise your voice and be assertive.
Even if you operated on board of a british flag carrier, it was a violation of the rules and plain stupid.
Its not enoug that the wing is clean underneath the snow. It has to be clean, without snow
These guys had also inspected the wing. They even decided to deice! They had some clear ice which was undetected and the rest is history. How do you think your groundengineer detects clear ice below snow? ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-81 OY-KHO Gottrra
The wings are big and full of different materials, systems, heatsources, some parts are cold, some heat up due to the warm fuel or systems like oilcoolers, fuelheaters, hydraulic lines etc. During the approach the leading edges will be heated up to prevent ice accumulation. They are still warm for a while after touchdown. So there are an awfull lot of factors affecting the state of the wing in precipitation. How can you be sure the whole wing is the same as the tiny part in front of your ladders. Nobody walks in the winter on the wing, because they are afraid its slippery and they might fall down because of ICE!
Britis flag carriers have to stick to the rules too.
You were just lucky. Next time talk to your cockpit if you see snow on the wing. Ask how much delay the de-icing will cause. If they say "zero, cause we dont have to" Raise your voice and be assertive.
Last edited by warmkiter; 16th Apr 2012 at 10:40.
I get quite concerned about the alleged degree of subjectivity of pilots (as expressed in this forum) and ice. The idea was to reduce this subjectivity (not elliminate it).
That said a lot of data and analytical thought has gone into the FCOMs etc. provided by the manufactureres to the operator. Hopefully the operator has adopted these (as approved by his regulator) in what he presents to his crews.
It's not sufficient nor productive for us to argue about the pros and Cons of a subjective judgement if it has already been covered in the SOPS presented to the crew.
The issue is either a violation or a regulatory review of the SOPS of that operator.
I would push for the latter and respond only to that once it has been completed.
That said a lot of data and analytical thought has gone into the FCOMs etc. provided by the manufactureres to the operator. Hopefully the operator has adopted these (as approved by his regulator) in what he presents to his crews.
It's not sufficient nor productive for us to argue about the pros and Cons of a subjective judgement if it has already been covered in the SOPS presented to the crew.
The issue is either a violation or a regulatory review of the SOPS of that operator.
I would push for the latter and respond only to that once it has been completed.
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due to the intense cold (minus 20) the snow hadn't adhered to the wings and that they were completely clean underneath
Quite possibly the exact same circumstances at in the original video.
Quite possibly the exact same circumstances at in the original video.
It's been confirmed to me - by the Met Office and METAR archives - that the temperature at Moscow on 1 Jan varied between -1C and zero C.
That's not "intense cold"...
Thread Starter
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WET SNOW : is a condition where, if compacted by hand, snow will stick together and tend to form a snowball. Its density is approximately 0.4 kg/l
(3.35 lb/US Gal).
DRY SNOW : is a condition where snow can be blown if loose, or if compacted by hand, will fall apart again upon release. Its density is approximately 0.2 kg/l
(1.7 lb/US Gal).
COMPACTED SNOW: is a condition where snow has been compressed (a typical friction coefficient is 0.2).
A318/A319/A320/A321 PER-TOF-CTA-20 P 1/2
(3.35 lb/US Gal).
DRY SNOW : is a condition where snow can be blown if loose, or if compacted by hand, will fall apart again upon release. Its density is approximately 0.2 kg/l
(1.7 lb/US Gal).
COMPACTED SNOW: is a condition where snow has been compressed (a typical friction coefficient is 0.2).
A318/A319/A320/A321 PER-TOF-CTA-20 P 1/2
DOVE
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Dear Sirs
With reference to the incident:
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-81 OY-KHO Gottrra
First of all let me say: "Chapeau" to the exceptional skill of the innocent crew who brought the airplane on ground with 0 kill.
Let me add that after that accident some woolen threads were installed at the roots of the wings of the MD80, free to shake into the wind, in order to facilitate the identification of subtle icing Vetrone by the crew, often unnoticed.
With reference to the incident:
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-81 OY-KHO Gottrra
First of all let me say: "Chapeau" to the exceptional skill of the innocent crew who brought the airplane on ground with 0 kill.
Let me add that after that accident some woolen threads were installed at the roots of the wings of the MD80, free to shake into the wind, in order to facilitate the identification of subtle icing Vetrone by the crew, often unnoticed.
Let me add that after that accident some woolen threads were installed at the roots of the wings of the MD80, free to shake into the wind, in order to facilitate the identification of subtle icing Vetrone by the crew, often unnoticed.
but they were not put there to depend on the wind for visualization. They required movement by a pole device held by a man on a ladder. If you couldn't move them they were probably covered by a film of ice.The biggest problem with the dispatch with wing ice was the first flight of the day after an overnight in drizzle/snow. The snow would be blown off on the ground but they missed the check underneath for ice.
Contrary to popular belief there were only a few incidents of ice due to cold soaked fuel in above freezing conditions.
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Not to mention it looks like he is cruising at FL 650 or thereabouts.
The horizon looks unduly curved
Doesn't the picture look more familiar if you take away the camera tilt? Looks genuine to me.
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Originally Posted by Checkboard
The more "well known" Air Florida flight 90, a 737 which crashed into the Potomac river was more an issue of incorrectly set engine thrust (due icing of the P2T2 engine sensors) than ice on the wing.
The point is that the accident was actually caused by something other than a low power setting. However, because this is a 30-year old accident, there may be little interest in learning more about it - so I'll refrain until I know that there might be some interest. If you are interested in knowing what this additional information would be, I’d be glad to provide you with some facts that, while they were available at the time, were not given the attention they deserved. As a result, there was a large amount of misinformation being disseminated and the folks who took the vast majority of the “blame” were no longer around to offer their defense.
And ... just for accuracy in regulatory requirements ... with regard to operations in ice or snow, and the YouTube clip that lead off this thread ... the rules say the following...
No pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any propeller, windshield, stabilizing or control surface; to a powerplant installation; or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system or wing, except that takeoffs may be made with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks if authorized by the FAA.
One should note the operative wording in the requirement ... adhering to ...
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Air Rabbit, I may be missing something here, but I don't think the calculations are "calculated" on a 1 engine take -off from start of take off roll ? so they had a lot less thrust than was calculated for (as they had 75% of normal) up to V1, given that V1 happened at ? ? distance compared to calculated, Vr was also at some indeterminate point. . . nonetheless, I think, whatever deposits they had on the wings (even on an "old" 200/Classic wing) are unlikely to have been helpful.
I think, the whole point of this thread, is to determine whether TO with the deposits we see in the Video is
A- Criminally irresponsible or
B - "No problem" (airBaltic FO's will understand that sarcasm)
Well, you decide
I think, the whole point of this thread, is to determine whether TO with the deposits we see in the Video is
A- Criminally irresponsible or
B - "No problem" (airBaltic FO's will understand that sarcasm)
Well, you decide
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highly irresponsible from a gentleman point of view to make a lady worrying bout the snow on the wing. Jeez spray it clean and make them smile and I'm sure they'll be more approachable during next layover. Besides, as far as I know, pretty much all airlines pay for block time. Go figure, what's the rush line up in a queue for deice, have a coffee and a friendly chat with a lady and off you go with few extra bucks. It's safe, relaxed and maybe even far-reaching deicing catching up with the future Mrs. Brilliant opportunity to engage in social intercourse with the ladies. Can't wait for the next winter ops.