Take off with snow on wing
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the safety of our passengers is our number one priority.
Kelly, show them this thread and tell them you will NOT fly with that airline again.
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wonder what and how the folks at airbus are thinking after seeing this..I bet they would like to know who this was so they could try to stop these guys from operating wonder if there is a time stapm on the video Im sure someome out their can id the airport...
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$hit! I was almost sick with fear! Thought that video was going to end in a crash but the aircraft just kept on accelerating.
It's a blatant disregard for ICAO Doc 9640 which details that this not how Operators should be running things. Clean Aircraft Policy anyone?!
Pilots are trusted with people's lives, both those in the aircraft and those on the ground below. I wouldn't trust that lot with a penny no matter my life.
They got away with it this time but next time.......
It's a blatant disregard for ICAO Doc 9640 which details that this not how Operators should be running things. Clean Aircraft Policy anyone?!
Pilots are trusted with people's lives, both those in the aircraft and those on the ground below. I wouldn't trust that lot with a penny no matter my life.
They got away with it this time but next time.......
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Who cares about the ******* OAT, the ******* experience of the operator or of the pilots or of the passengers or of the president of the intergalactic alliance ??
Clean aircraft, clean aircraft, CLEAN AIRCRAFT.
Clean aircraft, clean aircraft, CLEAN AIRCRAFT.
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It's really hard to comprehend that video. The cost of de-icing fluid is meaningless in the context of all those peoples lives.
There is no way to know what lies under that snow. No way to know if it has melted and frozen overnight, or if one wing will clear or the other will not. Or if an Airbus will take off with snow and a CRJ can't. You are a test pilot with that much contamination. Airbus does not test the aircraft to that limit.
All those previously lost lives, rules written in the blood from previous fatalities. I guess it doesn't translate into Russian or perhaps they just know better?
There is no way to know what lies under that snow. No way to know if it has melted and frozen overnight, or if one wing will clear or the other will not. Or if an Airbus will take off with snow and a CRJ can't. You are a test pilot with that much contamination. Airbus does not test the aircraft to that limit.
All those previously lost lives, rules written in the blood from previous fatalities. I guess it doesn't translate into Russian or perhaps they just know better?
Oh Yeah dvv - were you there ? If it was that warm then everyone in that line was significantly more culpable. In any case the point of my post was simply to point out that such practices were commonplace in North America and anywhere else for that matter that had a serious winter- not just the naughty old Russians up to their tricks again.
The CAA /FAA rules at the time were always NO DEPOSITS which we certainly in UK always adhered to but they were often observed in the breach in significantly sub zero conditions in Canada and the USA. (Such conditions rarely apertained in High Holborn).
The CAA /FAA rules at the time were always NO DEPOSITS which we certainly in UK always adhered to but they were often observed in the breach in significantly sub zero conditions in Canada and the USA. (Such conditions rarely apertained in High Holborn).
Last edited by Peterd28; 10th Apr 2012 at 18:31.
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Why are people debating what's what? Their wing's contaminated. Who or what has experience with this, that or another is irrelevant. This is truly the act of clampats and anyone who suggests reasons for their motives appears to me that they may actually be willing to justify them.
Contamination will kill you. End of!
Contamination will kill you. End of!
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 10th Apr 2012 at 22:35.
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Peterd28,
Agreed, but most other places have come a little way forward and have given up operating like this. These guys haven't.
I have heard first hand from Western FO's that former Soviet era Capts do tend to place less emphasis on the clean wing policy, than us Westerners now do.
Ask any Scandi FO who has worked for airBaltic, how many times he /she had to insist to ex Aeroflot guys that they de-iced (unless he fancied departing single crew. )
Agreed, but most other places have come a little way forward and have given up operating like this. These guys haven't.
I have heard first hand from Western FO's that former Soviet era Capts do tend to place less emphasis on the clean wing policy, than us Westerners now do.
Ask any Scandi FO who has worked for airBaltic, how many times he /she had to insist to ex Aeroflot guys that they de-iced (unless he fancied departing single crew. )
No ice or snow or any contamination is acceptable on the upper surface of the wings and, IMO, neither on the top nor bottom of the tailplane.
ABZ one winter night. Civil Argosy skip decided he didn't have to remove accumulations of snow and ice. Taxied out and found they couldn't get full UP elevator due snow/ice lying on curtain between elevator and tailplane.
Recollect, in some European country or other, I insisted upon steps being brought so that I could personally have a feel of the upper wing surface for ice. Ground handling not pleased. I fear that they failed to appreciate how great was the f--k I could not give about their feelings.
Ovda; ice on wings due sub zero fuel. Resident ESN employee chucked bucket of hot water over same. More ice to remove; longer delay.
B747. "You've left snow on top of wings" "It isn't much, you'll be OK!" (Red rag to bull effect). "We have pictures which will go to your CAA!" "We'll send the de-icer back."
In these situations only one person calls the shots. Why do people argue? They're only going to lose and possibly incur an ASR across their boss's desk.
ABZ one winter night. Civil Argosy skip decided he didn't have to remove accumulations of snow and ice. Taxied out and found they couldn't get full UP elevator due snow/ice lying on curtain between elevator and tailplane.
Recollect, in some European country or other, I insisted upon steps being brought so that I could personally have a feel of the upper wing surface for ice. Ground handling not pleased. I fear that they failed to appreciate how great was the f--k I could not give about their feelings.
Ovda; ice on wings due sub zero fuel. Resident ESN employee chucked bucket of hot water over same. More ice to remove; longer delay.
B747. "You've left snow on top of wings" "It isn't much, you'll be OK!" (Red rag to bull effect). "We have pictures which will go to your CAA!" "We'll send the de-icer back."
In these situations only one person calls the shots. Why do people argue? They're only going to lose and possibly incur an ASR across their boss's desk.
I was thinking of the CRJ that rolled over on T/O at Birmingham after the APU exhaust melted a thin layer of frost on one wing only.
I see a reference to another CRJ accident above. Clearly it's a type that REALLY needs the wings clear.
I see a reference to another CRJ accident above. Clearly it's a type that REALLY needs the wings clear.
... and Belavia Flight 1834, a CRJ-100ER, and China Eastern Flight 5210, a CRJ-200LR. All aircraft without leading edge devices.
... not sayin' it's any less of a dereliction of duty in an aircraft WITH leading edge devices, mind.
Originally Posted by Peterd28
Fairly new in the RHS and my sector, I was re-assured by my hairy arsed colleagues that it wouldn't be a problem. There was a very significant delay on rotate before the a/c leaped into the air like a frightened horse. Not much conversation before Nantucket... well we didn't know about health and safety in those days... so what was there to talk about
... the airline, and METARs (weather reports) are posted on the Tech Log forum for anyone interested. Temperature hovering around 0º-1ºC and last snow fall about two hours before the flight.
Same pilot?
Last edited by Checkboard; 10th Apr 2012 at 19:50.
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And who cares about the outside air temperature? All this 'if it is below -XX degrees it is powdery dry snow which will blow off' is nonsense. The wing temperature might be (and will be in the case of Airbusses with heated fuel returning from the engine) way above the air temperature. On the video you can see clearly that the fuel is so warm it melted ALL the snow sitting over the outer wing tank. The crew could have had absolutely no idea if the snow would blow off or stick closer to the wing root.
You know, this is the kind of stuff that will be okay for 99 departures, you can get away with it as the video shows. Other idiotic crews will see it and think 'hey, Sergei is a good pilot, he knows his winter stuff, I try also'. Well...the 100th departure might just dip a wing. You cannot get away with this kind of recklessness in civil aviation.
You know, this is the kind of stuff that will be okay for 99 departures, you can get away with it as the video shows. Other idiotic crews will see it and think 'hey, Sergei is a good pilot, he knows his winter stuff, I try also'. Well...the 100th departure might just dip a wing. You cannot get away with this kind of recklessness in civil aviation.
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Not sure that Aeroflot's the only one doing this.
Have heard of a UK airline departing an outstation with ice on the wings but electing not to de-ice because the Captain wanted "to get home". Don't have the full details but it was a widebody departing Nth America.
Reasoned, logical thought process by the Captain in accordance with SOP or disregard for safety? I'll never know because I wasn't there.
Have heard of a UK airline departing an outstation with ice on the wings but electing not to de-ice because the Captain wanted "to get home". Don't have the full details but it was a widebody departing Nth America.
Reasoned, logical thought process by the Captain in accordance with SOP or disregard for safety? I'll never know because I wasn't there.
Ovda; ice on wings due sub zero fuel. Resident ESN employee chucked bucket of hot water over same. More ice to remove; longer delay.
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I too would be unwilling to sit in my seat as a passenger on that aircraft for take off without a good de-ice. As Capt Playstation said, i would do anything to stop the take off unless they off loaded me first. I am amazed it got airborne!
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Twenty years ago, at Newark, USA. Waiting to depart, as pax, in window seat.
Weather not rain, not snow, but sleet. Looking out at the wing beside me, it was best described as pebble-dashed. A deicing chap on a rickety moveable tower duly turned up and began to douse the 747 wing with fluid. Took about 8 minutes to do. Then he moved back and squirted the empenage. Another 8 minutes. And round to the other wing. By that time, my wing was pebble dash again! I was not a happy bunny, I rang the bell for the flight attendant and pointed out the window. "Not very nice trying to take off with all that ice" I commented. She had a look and sent for the first officer, who had a good look, thanked me for my concern and said not to worry, there were three de-icing rigs waiting at the end of the taxiway and we would get a thorough dousing before departure.
It came to pass exactly as he promised.. A bit like going through a really top line car wash, and we took off pronto, up through the murk and into the clear air in no time. Was I silly to fuss about it, do you think?
Weather not rain, not snow, but sleet. Looking out at the wing beside me, it was best described as pebble-dashed. A deicing chap on a rickety moveable tower duly turned up and began to douse the 747 wing with fluid. Took about 8 minutes to do. Then he moved back and squirted the empenage. Another 8 minutes. And round to the other wing. By that time, my wing was pebble dash again! I was not a happy bunny, I rang the bell for the flight attendant and pointed out the window. "Not very nice trying to take off with all that ice" I commented. She had a look and sent for the first officer, who had a good look, thanked me for my concern and said not to worry, there were three de-icing rigs waiting at the end of the taxiway and we would get a thorough dousing before departure.
It came to pass exactly as he promised.. A bit like going through a really top line car wash, and we took off pronto, up through the murk and into the clear air in no time. Was I silly to fuss about it, do you think?