Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe

[Yankee Whisky]

European bureaucracy at work !

Quote from AOPA circular;

The new rules will have a potentially massive effect on American flying schools that cater to European students. For years, Europeans having been coming to the United States to earn U.S. pilot certificates at prices thousands of dollars less than what it would have cost had they learned in Europe. Then they return to Europe and fly N-registered aircraft. Now, American flight schools will presumably have to alter their curricula to conform to EASA standards.

My comment;

This obviously is going to place undue cost burdens on NA flying schools
having to change to meet EASA standards.
This is going to cost the European pilots, and NA as well. What a bureaucrtic FU !

[de facto]

you seem to be pretty full of yourself for passing those 14 exams.

No I am not, however i did what my license authority required and it took time and hard work.I took the issue by the horns and succeeded.
A friend of mine did the atpl theory while working at the post office during the day,studying at night,passed all modules in 12 months,with the money he made during that year he started the conversion from his FAA ATPL (was an instructor for GA in the USA) and passed all his licenses.
Was he WHINING about it?yeah maybe but he DID IT and got a job later where he wanted to live..
Now i call this dedication, and my friends you need a LOT of it if you wanna make it in this industry.
Airlines don't like moaners,they like hard workers/achievers.

More important, it's also a selection between people who have EUR 15.000 to convert their license, type ratings and instructors privileges and those who don't. From a standpoint of aviation-safety this second selection is about as relevant as the first one.

It was the choice of those who left to get their license outside the EU for reasons of their choice(easier to get,cheaper,quicker or other) but they knew they would have to convert when and if they decided to come back.
A BIT OF FINANCIAL WORK/SACRIFICE,PLANNING AHEAD,STRONG WILL...and anyone can do it.
[quote]BTW: If you converted an FAA ATPL, as you claim, it should have been only 12 exams, because 91+92 are credited under JAR 1.016(a) conversions, at least in most countries, including Germany. Still: applause![QUOTE]
I sat all of the 14.I will ask my school for a refund then

Unfortunately your argument in favor of the status quo is an intellectually very weak one. It boils down to: "I had to do it, so everybody else has to do it." That's plain silly, even if a case for the EASA-rule could me made on other grounds.

Not at all, I wanted to get back to europe,I did what i had to do under the rules of the licensing department,unless they are changed,i am merely telling those who wish to do the same,well to start studying and saving..otherwise in 20 years they ll still be in the same chair whining on their computer, while the others ..well just moved on.

Anyway, if you read my article which iwrbf has linked, you notice that it's mainly about private pilots moving between systems due to job- or life-changes. And if you honestly think, that the current law is adequate or appropriate in these cases, then I would really like to know your reasoning.

yes i did and i can tell you flying in the UK airspace is quite different than flying in TEXAS or FLORIDA.

[iwrbf]

Hi.

@de_facto: This whole license thing is not about YOU. It's about European Licensing. I have understood now that you chose your life in a deliberate sense, I see that you're a great aviator and I see that you're a patriotic European. But this is not about you, as I said two lines up. I won't insinuate some kind of Alexithymia on your side, but I would like you to think about the people who are really battered by this pseudo protectionism.

No offense, just my wish that you take a glimpse beyond your demonstrated horizon.

[avionimc]

de facto: i can tell you flying in the UK airspace is quite different than flying in TEXAS or FLORIDA.

Really? Do they have different laws of physics?

I learned to fly at KDWH in Texas and flew extensively out of EGTK and in the greater London airspace (VFR & IFR), did not notice much difference, both places were friendly, except for all kind of fees being charged in the UK.

[avionimc]

de facto: i did what my license authority required and it took time

You seem to enjoy theoretical studies and written exams. As a suggestion, you could go to India and take all the DGCA ALTP written examinations over there as well. I am being told they are even tougher that the ones at EASA.

Though, it has been recognized as a fact, that these so called involved and expensive EASA or DGCA written exams do not produce better pilots...

[mad_jock]

This whole thing is nothing to do with safety which some people don't seem to realise.

It has been brewing for years.

Its all about a group of people giving the middle finger to the goverments and saying stick your rules up your arse I have found a way round them, I prefer these ones.

The loophole is now being shut.

As for policing it, all it takes is for every N reg to be met for a couple of months and the crew if not able to produce a JAR license or a green card/US passport get thrown in the nick and the aircraft impounded until its all sorted out.

You have been out manoveured by pro politicians end of story.

Apart from a minority who have been using the loophole nobody really cares one little bit. Some of us are pleased that the loophole is being shut. But are not pleased to see folk loosing their jobs. But you get that when loopholes shut. Whole industrys have shut down when they shut loopholes. Not much in the news about all the folk in the channels islands that are out of work now the VAT excemption has been closed.

[iwrbf]

@mad jock: There will be a day in the near future when you'll realize that your uber-trustworthy pro-politicians just did a trick on YOU... Sadly but true...

[mad_jock]

I already know that the EU is a pile of self serving .

I do know though that if I use a loophole I have to expect it to be shut at some point.

If I get in at the beginning I can expect a few years out of it, if its when it has become popular I can expect to get alot less time using it.

Crying about it post closure won't make them open it again. N reg is a victim of its own success in europe. When it was only a few it wasn't worth the bother to shut it. Now with growing numbers using it they can't ignore it any more. The EASA has just given them a good excuse to get it done.

[172_driver]

MD11Engineer touched upon it in post#26. I am trying to look at this issue from a different perspective. Yes, it's quite disgraceful the way EASA tries to protect the European aviation market from foreigners. It's quite clear it has nothing to do with safety at all. On the other hand, US has its own ways of protecting the job market from foreigners stealing their jobs. I am European that used to work in aviation in US. Just because I had an "essential skill" that could not be done by an American, my company could support me with a favorable visa that allowed me the right to stay and work. But it did not come without cost… in administrative, lawyer, traveling expenses we're talking about $5000 dollars… and it had to be renewed every second year. And despite all the money that was paid I was restricted to work for the company I was with at the time. I could go on and talk about the hassle to get a green card to allow me to work unrestricted. At the same time I have many European friends who have imported American girlfriends to Europe where they're now living and working, relatively troublesome less. We could protect ourselves through aviation, immigration or labour laws.

[Contacttower]

As for policing it, all it takes is for every N reg to be met for a couple of months and the crew if not able to produce a JAR license or a green card/US passport get thrown in the nick and the aircraft impounded until its all sorted out.

I don't think it's quite that simple; the rules are based on whether or not the operator is actually based in the EU, not the nationality of the crew as such. Pretty obvious in the case of someone stepping out of a privately owned Cessna who lives in the UK but for larger aircraft it might not be so clear were exactly the "operator" resides. How that will be enforced and whether or not people come up with elaborate ways to "base" their aircraft outside of Europe or just bite the bullet and comply remains to be seen...

[Airbus_a321]

@Adam

..Europe requires so many pilots that the..

Where do you live, to make such a statement? Pull off your pink glasses. Hundreds of European pilots, most of them having k's of hours on "big" jets, are forced to work abroad, because the Pilotsmarket in Europe is a mess.The market is down
It's even difficult to get jobs where you just could fly for food.

Correct me if I am wrong and tell us names. e.g. I am desperately looking for a job in Good Old Europe - since years -

[mad_jock]

but for larger aircraft it might not be so clear were exactly the "operator" resides

Hope you like sitting in a cell until they do sort out where the operator resides.

I think its another cunning ploy.

If you manage to get round the operator recidence thing they will then say its a AOC flight. And to prove its not an AOC flight it will bring the residency into question.

Alll they need to do is ground the aircraft subject to investigation for 2-3 days every time they land or even once or twice a month and then having your own transport is useless because you could never garantee it would be available when you wanted it.

[2EggOmelette]

Hi a321,

I was waiting to see someone to jump on that. Over embellished a touch in retrospect, agreed (sorry), but at risk of sounding like a tosser, I wanted to see what would be said.

Yes, there is a market down turn. But its not a constant. The average is still upward trending. Pax numbers are consistently up across the board.
Yes, some carriers are reducing output in order to weather the storm.
Have a look at these 2 links.
The economic downturn will reverse, as it always does. We cannot continually blame the worlds woes on this.

European airline traffic and load factors up in Sep-2011, but outlook mixed for major carriers | CAPA

4.8% Passenger Growth in 2011 for Europe's Regional Airlines

As you can see, it aint rosy reading, but its not depressing either.
Loads of new aircraft continue to be purchased all over Europe,
Boeing are expecting a 20% increase of aircrew in Europe due solely on orders over the next 18 years. (A while I know). But focusing on ''now'' in regards to this issue is a mistake. The wider implications over a protracted period - say the next 20 years, are far more wide ranging

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo...n_outlook.html

If there is a gluttony of pilots, then why are the new JAA sponsored courses in NZ, Australia and America training record numbers of students? Because there is a demand for them, that's why. Why the airlines prefer them and not multi thousand hour aircrew is a different subject.

No Rose tinted glasses here my friend, all many of us are asking for is a fair and impartial opportunity to remain open so that we CAN look for work without blowing $30k in conversion costs.

On a personal note though a321, I wish you best of luck with the job hunt. I've heard rumours of Thomas Cook hiring, as well as Virgin and Jet2 recently. But there will be others who know better on that count.

Oh yeah, I live in France

[Contacttower]

Alll they need to do is ground the aircraft subject to investigation for 2-3 days every time they land or even once or twice a month and then having your own transport is useless because you could never garantee it would be available when you wanted it.

Like I said we'll wait and see what happens. As one of the most prolific posters on the Private Flying forum pointed out, it would appear that most European states (unlike the UK) have not decided to delay implementation of the licencing compliance requirement unitl 2014 for foreign registered EU based aircraft and therefore as of 8th April they are apparently flying illegally if not in possession of EASA licences and if based in a state that has not delayed implementation. However there is little evidence that in the short term there will be any sanctions taken against them...I look forward to hearing the details of any cases that emerge.

Like the Italian private aircraft tax for example there is often a delay between a law actually being past and the enforcers on the ground actually being aware of it and being in a position to enforce it.

I would hope however that simply being an EU citizen, flying an N-reg in the EU on FAA papers would not, in of itself, be enough grounds for arrest/and or impounding of the aircraft. I would have thought that the authorities would need strong evidence that the aircraft was actually EU based as well to take action.

Ultimately what I think it will come down to is the inclination of individual member states to crack down on suspected offenders...something again which will be interesting to see. Who knows, this could be a massive non issue, personally I just went and got an EASA IR... bit more of a pain for ATPL or indeed (as the article points out) for people who are only planning on staying in the EU for a few years.

[mad_jock]

I would hope however that simply being an EU citizen, flying an N-reg in the EU on FAA papers would not, in of itself, be enough grounds for arrest/and or impounding of the aircraft. I would have thought that the authorities would need strong evidence that the aircraft was actually EU based as well to take action.

I take it you have never been ramp checked in France on a Friday afternoon. They are more than happy to put you in a cell over the weekend until things are sorted out.

It was the same with the VAT certs. If there is a high chance they know they are going to find something they will head over. They will prob leave it 3-4 months to see what moves and then start targeting.

Bit of a bitch though if you get pulled in Italy and then get hammered for the tax after you have sorted things out.

Britain doesn't have that many spot checks and was more than likely quite fly with getting the 2014. Let all the rest fight the fight and by 2014 most of the flak should have died down.

[Contacttower]

I take it you have never been ramp checked in France on a Friday afternoon. They are more than happy to put you in a cell over the weekend until things are sorted out.

Sounds like you're speaking from personal experience...

You're right though I have not have had the pleasure of such an ordeal thankfully.

[4x4]

Please see thread on EASA monopoly in the Biz Jets forum

Should there be any FAA N-reg drivers or owners out there who are in a similar position to myself, then please PM me, and we can talk further about this, and whether, as mentioned earlier in this thread, there is any remote possibility of bringing a Discriminatory case against the EU/EASA.

[pilotchute]

Throwing stones

Well in oz so far I have worked with Germans,Italians,French,Indians,Argentinians etc. All had the legal right to live and work here be it through marriage,naturalization or a birth parent. If every Aussie with a license to fly who had a euro passport turned up in Europe tomorrow you would have at least a thousand. We have better opportunities here so don't worry. Please stop banging the drum about all non euros taking your jobs,it's boring and BS.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by 3bars

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

Uhhh, no, you did not pay one penny for the "honor of flying in American Skies". The US does not charge "navigation" fees or communications fees, or clearance fees, or any other fees having to do with flying an airplane. Very few airports charge landing fees for general aviation aircraft, and those that do aren't the sort you'd normally go while training.

What you paid was to private businesses to rent aircraft, buy fuel, and pay instructors.

You may have paid some fees indirectly to the US for you written exams.

Any you know why you were over in the US paying those people?

For one reason and one reason only; because it was one hell of a lot *less* expensive than the same thing at home.

So, spare us the "paid thru the nose" drivel.

[countbat]

Darn right every single word A Squared says.