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Utair ATR 72 Crash in Siberia

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Utair ATR 72 Crash in Siberia

Old 4th Apr 2012, 14:42
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Not so simple in Russia.
Lot's of pressure often brought to bear/connecting flights/return slots, plane has to fly on time, or maybe won't fill the quota for the day where distances can be large.

What I don't understand is any pressure to be "on time at all costs" on this flight.
My bold above

But we don't know that is a fact on this flight. After all it's a crew decision and their justification that is in question and that is not in evidence as yet
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 16:57
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Culture of Safety taking back seat to commercial considerations?
Still the most dangerous country to fly in the world.
Not really - that prize goes to DRC every time.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:53
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Originally Posted by Flying Beancounter

Per ATR "Icing conditions" are expected when air temperature is less than 7 degrees Celsius and there is visible moisture in the air, etc, etc.
Interesting...we used 10°C in visible moisture for icing conditions. Perhaps a company limit.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:55
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Originally Posted by up_down_n_out

Maybe PF says/thinks he's done this loads of times before and got away with it, esp on AN type AC, so cutting corners.
Would be curious to know how many times this winter the plane DIDN'T get deiced in the morning after sitting in anything down to -45C.
That would be very telling.
Do the Russians have a de-ice fkuid -45°C or F?
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 05:59
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"Per ATR "Icing conditions" are expected when air temperature is less than 7 degrees Celsius and there is visible moisture in the air, etc, etc."

Well I would say that would approximate very closely to the weather on that morning.
Living in the same region, Ural weather is known for being unpredictable, - sudden changes in temp & humidity with the different opposing airstreams from polar, european, southerly & siberian esp at equinox.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 12:00
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ATR Cold Weather Operations

You can get all the latest info on cold weather ops from the ATR website.

Cold Weather Operations 2011 - PDF ~ 2812 kB

http://www.atraircraft.com/media/dow...ns_2011_20.pdf

This includes ATR guidance and definitions on Icing Conditions, etc.
Some companies may use more rigorous limits but hopefully all operators will at least achieve the ATR guidance.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 14:12
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isitcheerie,

You can tell your ATR buddy retracting the flaps at 400' agl is utter rubbish. Do not confuse the minimum acceleration altitude with flap retraction.

400' may be used as the lowest acceleration altitude, and in case of engine failure (no obstacles indeed) you would maintain until flap retraction speed.

In daily ops,most operators choose an acceleration between 800' to 1500' based on a number of factors, which is the altitude at which the airplane starts to accelerate, while keeping a positive climb. Only after reaching the White/Red Bug can (should) the flap retraction start.

However I do not know the UT specific SOP's. But if the aircraft was not de-iced, retracting flaps that early with a contaminated wing (and seemingly a high AOA on 2nd segment climb) can have only one outcome: the one that happened.

Sad story, thoughts for the families.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 16:27
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pure speculation: stalling in climbing turn

Take a look at the SID chart:



They were departing via either RO 1A towards ROPOT or GR 1A towards GRADA, and both of the routes prescribe a right turn immediately after the take off. Trying to make the turn at a lower speed than the aircraft could?
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 17:14
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Makes perfect sense then.
WHOOPS!

"After T/O aircraft reached height of 210m, then banked right 35°

....then left 50°"
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 19:30
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At this height after t/o the ATR should fly at speed of at least V2+5 and at that speed is perfectly capable of making turns (though with a bank angle limit of 15 deg), at least when it has been correctly de-iced...
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 22:52
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Technical Failure Most Likely Cause of Siberia Crash - Experts | Russia | RIA Novosti
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 23:03
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So the face saving and buck-passing has already started.
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Old 6th Apr 2012, 04:16
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Actually that's rather old news.

The russian rumour mill favours the pilot no de-icing to save cash. "De-icing an ATR 72-200 would cost about 30,000 roubles ($1,000)".
That sounds like rather an exaggeration especially in a region which has cash coming out of its ears.
Sure thing, 30 dead people & total a/c loss costs a lot more than 6, 5000 rouble notes.

What were these people thinking?

I guess, 2 pilots in their mid 20s, an aircraft with no technical inspection since 2010, has done this trip probably every day for months in worse conditions, routine (complacency) as usual takes over.

Evaluation of risk where are you?
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Old 6th Apr 2012, 12:39
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Stuck_in_an_ATR, I'm not sure we know the height at which they started the turn — see the note at the bottom of the chart that allows to start the turn at pretty much any height below 200 meters.
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Old 6th Apr 2012, 16:42
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I worked in russian aviation some time ago and what I saw there was just shocking. I can't give you many details as I don't want to get trouble in my job, but in russian aviation a lot of thinks going badly wrong, so the crash of the ATR is sadly only a logical consequence of what I saw there.

Technicans and Pilots working on western a/c don't speak english where flight manuals and technical documentations only available in english, no spare parts available so a/c have to be ripped that other a/c can fly. Very often one a/c stays in the hangar for months to provide spares for the rest of the fleet, until another a/c gets AOG, then they change the a/c in the hangar, making the a/c that lost more than 100 parts during it's time on ground airworty again, of course with 90% parts from other not flying a/c. Of course techical documentation is improper and aircrafts are flying with known technical defect that would lead to an immidiate AOG in Europe, I saw a/c flying with defect anti-ice-systems in the russian winter.

And the recent grounding of most soviet build planes does not really improves the situation, more and more western build a/c flying with bad trained flight and technical crews.

It's just a matter of time when the next plane is down in Russia...
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Old 8th Apr 2012, 11:55
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Language problem

For the record I have never encountered a UTair ATR pilot or cabin attendant that did not speak good English - possibly why they tend to be rather young
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Old 8th Apr 2012, 19:22
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A video clip making rounds on Russian websites:



This take-off allegedly happened on Jan 1 this year, approx at this time:

METAR UUEE 011300Z 26003MPS 5000 BR BKN007 OVC013 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 25510145 75510145
METAR UUEE 011330Z 27002MPS 5000 BR OVC016 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145
METAR UUEE 011400Z 30003MPS 5000 BR OVC017 M01/M02 Q1011 NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145

Any comments on the condition of the wing here?
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Old 8th Apr 2012, 19:38
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Does it really need any comments?

I'd be jumping up to deploy a slide if I was on board and they taxi'd to the runway with a wing like that.

Amazing after all the crashes due to surface contamination there are still operators that just don't get it.
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Old 8th Apr 2012, 22:08
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The language is a very big problem, at least in the company I worked with for over 1,5 years, and it is not so long ago. About the pilots there are of course many who speak good enough english, but there are quite some pilots who did not speak well enough english. Just last week I flew with a russian carrier (a/c was an Airbus) and none of the cabin crew spoke good english.

But for the technical staff, the mechanics working on the aircraft, here the language situation is really bad, in the company I worked for maybe 10-15% of the mechanics speak english well enough to understand the manuals.

I don't want to say that everything in the russian aviation is bad (I only worked with one airline), but what I saw there was so bad that I would never fly with this company again.
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Old 8th Apr 2012, 23:32
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From personal experience, when requesting de-icing in a similar part of the world, the response from the ground services often being-

"Russian aircraft not de-ice"

They would happily run a hand over the contamination, brush the loose stuff off, and try to suggest that we are being stupid asking for it.
Often, there were hints and suggestions that it would take a long time to find deicing kit, which would make us late. Only dogged insistence would result in their reluctant compliance.
Pointing at the dent in the ground where someone previously didn't de-ice had no appreciable effect on their thinking.
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