Sooo, You Want to Fly for Korean Airlines Do You?
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I have worked for both Korean Airlines and Air China. Korean Airlines treatment of foreign pilots is far better than at Air China. Air China has stolen foreign pilots salaries, sacked and left foreign pilots abandoned in PEK and attempted to destroy foreign pilots careers by writing defamatory references. KAL has never done any of these things.
Air China expats are always in confrontation with management who constantly and unilaterally change the terms of a previously agreed contract. The representing agencies do nothing but pander to Air China's arrogant directives. While at KAL I always had 8-10 days at home and positioned in business, more often in first class and was permitted to use the airport lounge.
China does not release all aircraft incident events to the world, preferring to sweep them under the carpet to save face. Admittedly, at KAL the CRM leaves a lot to be desired, but at Air China, not only is there no CRM, there is not even a CRM course!
So, you want to fly for Korean Airlines? Good luck to you, there are far worse places.
Did someone mention English proficiency? My last sim check at Air China was conducted via an English interpreter and I never encountered a KAL pilot with English "proficiency" as bad as this example:-
Air China expats are always in confrontation with management who constantly and unilaterally change the terms of a previously agreed contract. The representing agencies do nothing but pander to Air China's arrogant directives. While at KAL I always had 8-10 days at home and positioned in business, more often in first class and was permitted to use the airport lounge.
China does not release all aircraft incident events to the world, preferring to sweep them under the carpet to save face. Admittedly, at KAL the CRM leaves a lot to be desired, but at Air China, not only is there no CRM, there is not even a CRM course!
So, you want to fly for Korean Airlines? Good luck to you, there are far worse places.
Did someone mention English proficiency? My last sim check at Air China was conducted via an English interpreter and I never encountered a KAL pilot with English "proficiency" as bad as this example:-
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Air China talks to JFK ground
Ok. Drifting off topic here...
Ok, sure, The Air China level of english in that clip is terrible.
Nevertheless, I agree with this post about that clip.
Shall we go back back to the topic now?
Ok, sure, The Air China level of english in that clip is terrible.
Nevertheless, I agree with this post about that clip.
Shall we go back back to the topic now?
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Direct, not quite true. I worked for China Air and KE. Both airlines cut my salary when times were tight for them, both times ignoring my contract which was held by an agent. Because it was an agent contract they knew I would have to sue the agent, not them, for redress. Impossible to do.
I left CI because of the cut (and also a change in Base, which would cost me a lot more).
After a year at KE they cut the foreign pilot salaries for 12 months by 10 percent, leaving the local salaries alone. In fact they gave the locals a bonus that year and then gave them a substantial increase the following year. In that year also they cut the foreign pilot salaries on the 744 (which was what I was flying of course!) again for around 6 months, by about 8 percent. Again no redress.
I would safely say that the word of any of the Asian carriers (except for SQ? I also worked for them and have no complaints there) is worthless. If you get what they said you would get, days off or money, you are lucky.
I would not assume that they will cheat you, mostly they don't, but you have no recourse if they do.
They lost a perfectly serviceable MD11 the same year, pilot error and another in Guam two years previously, again pilot error (Plane Crashes and Significant Safety Events Since 1970 for Korean Air). As well as other accidents not involving passengers so not showing in the stats.
I left CI because of the cut (and also a change in Base, which would cost me a lot more).
After a year at KE they cut the foreign pilot salaries for 12 months by 10 percent, leaving the local salaries alone. In fact they gave the locals a bonus that year and then gave them a substantial increase the following year. In that year also they cut the foreign pilot salaries on the 744 (which was what I was flying of course!) again for around 6 months, by about 8 percent. Again no redress.
I would safely say that the word of any of the Asian carriers (except for SQ? I also worked for them and have no complaints there) is worthless. If you get what they said you would get, days off or money, you are lucky.
I would not assume that they will cheat you, mostly they don't, but you have no recourse if they do.
They lost a perfectly serviceable MD11 the same year, pilot error and another in Guam two years previously, again pilot error (Plane Crashes and Significant Safety Events Since 1970 for Korean Air). As well as other accidents not involving passengers so not showing in the stats.
Last edited by boofhead; 7th Apr 2012 at 17:09.
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My take on this is (ignoring Korean culture and how they treat expats) after a heated exchange, the captain grabbed for the engineers badge. The engineer then went took a shot at the captain. I take the side of the engineer of this.
You obviously didn't read the original post. The captain never made physical contact with the engineer. The engineer assaulted the captain. I guess that's ok. After asking the engineer his name and ID(which he declined to give) the captain lifted the badge up to see the name and ID #. Never did "grab" it.
TSA screener at JFK Airport charged with throwing hot coffee ion pilot - NYPOST.com
You can get a good idea of the language you sometimes encounter on the ground at places like PHL, EWR and JFK by searching for 'Soul plane airport security' on YouTube. The clip stars Academy Award winner Mo'Nique and has subtitles, you don't want to play it with the kids listening in my opinion.
Grabbing someone's ID would be a pretty provocative act in most cultures I would think. Just like tangling with the locals in an expat job, pilots are usually going to lose when they take a stand against a TSA agent. The AA pilot played the FFDO card (he was carrying a gun) but I think this will get him in more trouble than it was worth.
Last edited by Airbubba; 7th Apr 2012 at 18:44.
Thread drift, but please permit my indulgance.
Hopefully this clip will provide a little ballance on the debate on Korean v Western culture.
Hopefully this clip will provide a little ballance on the debate on Korean v Western culture.
Last edited by nomorecatering; 8th Apr 2012 at 03:53.
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Hopefully this clip will provide a little balance on the debate on Korean v culture.
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While there are clearly cultural issues if you fly in the far east I am always carefull of thes pages and the posts that appear.
I am minded of a post that I read on these pages about a truly shocking airline that treated its staff like dirt with the pilot management being imposable to communicate with, as I continued to read this appalling story it slowly dawned on me that the post was about the airline that I worked for.
Clearly the guy writing the post had issues but none of them in my experience were true and the management culture was one of the most open and reasonable that I had encountered in 30 years on the business, I can only think that the guy was writing these things at 1AM after a night in the bar.
For these reasons I would take some of the above with a very large pinch of salt.
I am minded of a post that I read on these pages about a truly shocking airline that treated its staff like dirt with the pilot management being imposable to communicate with, as I continued to read this appalling story it slowly dawned on me that the post was about the airline that I worked for.
Clearly the guy writing the post had issues but none of them in my experience were true and the management culture was one of the most open and reasonable that I had encountered in 30 years on the business, I can only think that the guy was writing these things at 1AM after a night in the bar.
For these reasons I would take some of the above with a very large pinch of salt.
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“very large pinch of salt” et al;
One thing I’ve learned in my 28-year aviation career is that ensuring job security and promotion can cause so-called "professional" pilots to act and conduct themselves in ways that are far removed from any association with professionalism. It may be that colleagues truly faced many problems with an airline management regime while certain individuals did not, for whatever reasons.
To give you an example of the depths to which individuals will sink and sacrifice their self respect, one pilot I am aware of at Air China’s cargo division spent so much of his free time in the office presenting photographs of his family to managers, he had the photographs laminated! - I am informed this specimen of our profession has now been promoted to “instructor” status to reward his efforts to please.
So, you may well take the above with a “very large pinch of salt” but it rather depends on the facts of your own personal experiences sans integrity or not.
From my personal experiences at both Korean Airlines and Air China, you are far better off at Korean Airlines for the previoulsy stated reasons. Alternatively, if you want to avoid any communication challenges completely, stay home!
One thing I’ve learned in my 28-year aviation career is that ensuring job security and promotion can cause so-called "professional" pilots to act and conduct themselves in ways that are far removed from any association with professionalism. It may be that colleagues truly faced many problems with an airline management regime while certain individuals did not, for whatever reasons.
To give you an example of the depths to which individuals will sink and sacrifice their self respect, one pilot I am aware of at Air China’s cargo division spent so much of his free time in the office presenting photographs of his family to managers, he had the photographs laminated! - I am informed this specimen of our profession has now been promoted to “instructor” status to reward his efforts to please.
So, you may well take the above with a “very large pinch of salt” but it rather depends on the facts of your own personal experiences sans integrity or not.
From my personal experiences at both Korean Airlines and Air China, you are far better off at Korean Airlines for the previoulsy stated reasons. Alternatively, if you want to avoid any communication challenges completely, stay home!
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D.B, why take such radical stance? How about proper conflict management solution. That's what distinct a civilized approach from brown nosing or being unpleasant individual. The subject isn't personal but operational. If there's a disagreement between whoever then there are two way to resolve it. Personal discussion or using the reporting system. First solution requires diplomatic skills whereas the latter one impeccable knowledge of the procedures. In any case the commander has the ultimate final say in operational matters. The hustle ins't worth the candles in this particular case it seems, at least.
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15 April 1999; Korean Air MD-11; Flight 6316; near Shanghai, China
I flew for KAL in the 90s. Foreign crews were treated pretty good on the job, but the contractors weren't any better. I stuck my neck out several times exerting "Captains authority" over maintenance and dispatch items. I was always backed up by the airline check airmen.
Does anyone have any report on the above listed accident. I flew the MD and would be very interested in reading any accident report.
I flew for KAL in the 90s. Foreign crews were treated pretty good on the job, but the contractors weren't any better. I stuck my neck out several times exerting "Captains authority" over maintenance and dispatch items. I was always backed up by the airline check airmen.
Does anyone have any report on the above listed accident. I flew the MD and would be very interested in reading any accident report.
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Does anyone have any report on the above listed accident. I flew the MD and would be very interested in reading any accident report.
Narrative:
MD-11F cargo plane HL7373 was operating flight KE6316 from Shanghai's Honqiao Airport to Seoul. The plane was loaded with 68 tons of cargo and pushed back from it's stand. Shanghai Tower then cleared the flight as follows: "Korean Air six three one six clear to destination flight planned route flight level two niner zero. After departure turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey. Initially climb and maintain niner hundred meters. Departure frequency one one niner zero five. Squawk six three one six." The engines were started and the airplane taxied to runway 18. Shortly after 4pm the flight was cleared for takeoff. After takeoff the first officer contacted Shanghai Departure and received clearance to climb to 1500 metres (4900 feet): "Korean Air six three one six now turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey climb and maintain one thousand five hundred meters."
When the aircraft climbed to 4500 feet in the corridor, the captain, after receiving two wrong affirmative answers from the first officer that the required altitude should be 1500 feet, thought that the aircraft was 3000 feet too high. The captain then pushed the control column abrubtly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. Both crew members tried to recover from the dive, but were unable. The airplane crashed into an industrial development zone 10 kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Hongqiao airport. The plane plunged to the ground, plowing into housing for migrant workers and exploded.
MD-11F cargo plane HL7373 was operating flight KE6316 from Shanghai's Honqiao Airport to Seoul. The plane was loaded with 68 tons of cargo and pushed back from it's stand. Shanghai Tower then cleared the flight as follows: "Korean Air six three one six clear to destination flight planned route flight level two niner zero. After departure turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey. Initially climb and maintain niner hundred meters. Departure frequency one one niner zero five. Squawk six three one six." The engines were started and the airplane taxied to runway 18. Shortly after 4pm the flight was cleared for takeoff. After takeoff the first officer contacted Shanghai Departure and received clearance to climb to 1500 metres (4900 feet): "Korean Air six three one six now turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey climb and maintain one thousand five hundred meters."
When the aircraft climbed to 4500 feet in the corridor, the captain, after receiving two wrong affirmative answers from the first officer that the required altitude should be 1500 feet, thought that the aircraft was 3000 feet too high. The captain then pushed the control column abrubtly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. Both crew members tried to recover from the dive, but were unable. The airplane crashed into an industrial development zone 10 kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Hongqiao airport. The plane plunged to the ground, plowing into housing for migrant workers and exploded.
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When the aircraft climbed to 4500 feet in the corridor, the captain, after receiving two wrong affirmative answers from the first officer that the required altitude should be 1500 feet, thought that the aircraft was 3000 feet too high. The captain then pushed the control column abrubtly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. Both crew members tried to recover from the dive, but were unable. The airplane crashed into an industrial development zone 10 kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Hongqiao airport. The plane plunged to the ground, plowing into housing for migrant workers and exploded.
So the cause of the above MD 11 at ZSSS as described was certainly plausible.
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Ok.so that just about covers the Koreans.It takes a special expat type to last in Korea.China.Japan.Nobodys perfect.I think it was Churchill who painted the Russians as an «enigma inside a riddle» and the same could be said of the Orient.Kipling put it even better with his «east is east and west is west» saying.
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Air Koryo. DPRK National Airline.
An expatriate friend of mine who lives in Beijing and is CEO of a company doing business in North Korea informs me that he has flown in excess of one thousand ( 1000 ) flights with Air Koryo the national airline of North Korea. The first was in 1993 and he is still doing it. The majority of these flights were Beijing - Pyongyang - Beijing on the IL62 when until recently it was taken off passenger routes and replaced by the TU-204. He describes Air Koryo as his favourite airline for reasons of punctuality, inflight service and the big smiles he gets from the girls. Having flown with Air Koryo I can't do other than endorse his sentiments.
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He describes Air Koryo as his favourite airline for reasons of punctuality, inflight service and the big smiles he gets from the girls. Having flown with Air Koryo I can't do other than endorse his sentiments.
Inside North Korea's Air Koryo, The World's Only 1-Star Airline - Business Insider
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Another KE item in today's news:
Bomb threat forces Korean Air jet to land in B.C. - World - CBC News
Bomb threat forces Korean Air jet to land in B.C.
2nd threat in 2 days causes diversion to Vancouver Island military base
CBC News
Posted: Apr 10, 2012 9:01 PM ET
Last Updated: Apr 10, 2012 11:51 PM ET
The crew of a Korean Air 777 airliner was forced to make an emergency landing at a military airbase on Vancouver Island after the airline received its second bomb threat in two days.
Korean Air Flight 72, with 149 people on board, had taken off from Vancouver International Airport headed for Seoul, South Korea, at 2:30 p.m. PT Tuesday.
The crew turned back off the north coast of B.C. after a bomb threat was made in a telephone call to the airline's Los Angeles office, a Korean Air spokesman told CBC News.
The flight was diverted to the airbase at Comox, on Vancouver Island, escorted by U.S. air force F-15 fighter jets that had been scrambled from Portland, Ore., according to Victoria's Search and Rescue Co-ordination Centre.
Another threat was phoned in on Monday against Korean Air Flight 72 before it took off, forcing a two-hour delay as RCMP cleared passengers off the aircraft to check for explosive devices, said James Koh, of Korean Air's Vancouver office...
2nd threat in 2 days causes diversion to Vancouver Island military base
CBC News
Posted: Apr 10, 2012 9:01 PM ET
Last Updated: Apr 10, 2012 11:51 PM ET
The crew of a Korean Air 777 airliner was forced to make an emergency landing at a military airbase on Vancouver Island after the airline received its second bomb threat in two days.
Korean Air Flight 72, with 149 people on board, had taken off from Vancouver International Airport headed for Seoul, South Korea, at 2:30 p.m. PT Tuesday.
The crew turned back off the north coast of B.C. after a bomb threat was made in a telephone call to the airline's Los Angeles office, a Korean Air spokesman told CBC News.
The flight was diverted to the airbase at Comox, on Vancouver Island, escorted by U.S. air force F-15 fighter jets that had been scrambled from Portland, Ore., according to Victoria's Search and Rescue Co-ordination Centre.
Another threat was phoned in on Monday against Korean Air Flight 72 before it took off, forcing a two-hour delay as RCMP cleared passengers off the aircraft to check for explosive devices, said James Koh, of Korean Air's Vancouver office...
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Air Koryo. DPRK National Airline :
Airbubba;
The EU restrictions on Air Koryo are politically motivated, everyone is aware of that. The fixed reviews mentioned as part of your You Tube posting are somewhat top heavy with american gutter talk so I dont think they count for much.
The EU restrictions on Air Koryo are politically motivated, everyone is aware of that. The fixed reviews mentioned as part of your You Tube posting are somewhat top heavy with american gutter talk so I dont think they count for much.
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Air Koryo is the perfect airline. Such talk impuning it are jealous lies. ALL HAIL THE GREAT LEADER for his wisdom in running an airline with such customer satisfaction.